- From: gregory j. rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:37:19 -0400
- To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, "Aaron Smith" <aaron@gwmicro.com>
aloha, aaron! AS: can someone explain the animosity that people seem to have toward frames? GJR: FRAMES definitely _do_ help some users at a priority 1 level, FRAMES definitely _do_ hinder some users at a priority 1 level, and FRAMES obviously annoy a whole heap of users... personally, i'm ambivalent as to the worth of frames, so long as (a) the FRAMESET (and its individual components) validates; (b) there's valid, useful, and conscientiously updated content contained in the NOFRAMES section--such as a duplication of the contents of the navigation frame, for instance, or a well-structured site map--so that those who either _can't_ use frames, who choose not to use frames, or whose software simply doesn't support frames can still use the framed site... as for reasons not to use of frames, you might start at jakob nielson's useit.com, in particular: 1. "Why Frames Suck (Most of the Time)" http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html 2. "Stylesheets Versus Frames as Web Extensions" http://www.useit.com/alertbox/styles_vs_frames.html 3. "'Top 10 Mistakes' Revisited (Three Years Later)" http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990502.html AS: So in this particular instance, it comes down to whether we do what standards wants us to do, or what our customers want us to do. GJR: that's not the case at all -- Window-Eyes and other adaptive technologies aren't colliding with standards, they are colliding with (a) poor authoring practices; (b) software which either can't or won't communicate with other software (especially if the third party needs write-access); and (c) a willingness to accommodate hacks and kludges... example: adobe's acrobat reader 5 kicks ass for the most part, but it doesn't let me listen to any of the rebates i download from the web (almost all of which are exclusively available as PDF), because quote this document's security settings prevent access unquote... now, i understand why the company offering the rebate doesn't want to give me (the individual) write access to a downloaded rebate, but what about my assistive technology? an AT may need "write" access to an application's document object model in order to enable me to review the contents of the protected document, but it is prevented from obtaining them due to the method employed to digitally ensure the integrity of the rebate... shouldn't such an impasse have occurred to someone during the developmental process? if ATs need to be digitally certified in order to access an application's document object model (and in the case of acrobat 5, they do), then shouldn't that certification also exempt them from simply repeating "this document's security settings prevent access" when an end user attempts to autonomously access the content of a document? nothing analogous pops up to prevent the sighted user from reviewing the contents of the same file -- "this document's security settings prevent your display adapter from painting this document to the screen" -- nor does a "this document's security settings prevent you from printing this document" dialog appear when the "print" command is issued... sounds to me as if somebody's seriously mis-managing my digital rights! so, where does it stop being the author's problem ("hey, dude--i just don't want anyone monkeying with the document") and become the application developer's problem? what's the role of the AT developer -- don't they bear a share of the responsibility? the W3C/WAI is bearing its share of the responsibility, not only by promulgating standards and guidelines, but in ensuring, to the best of its ability, that those standards and guidelines actually reflect the needs and desires of the communities at whom assistive technologies are targeted... what the end users of assistive technology really want is better, more efficient, and more immediate access to a wider variety and greater choice of applications -- something which is only possible through adherence to standards... and, along with programming to standards, AT developers (at least in the united states) need to begin using the shadow of the strong arm of section 508, or whatever other regulatory mechanism is available under local jurisdiction, to convince/compel/arm-twist companies into adhering to standards and complying with guidelines... so, aaron, as an end user of the technology that your company develops, if you were to ask me what your users really want, i'd have to reply, simply the ability to simply turn on their computer, PDA, or cell phone and interact with the world on their own terms... gregory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ABSURDITY, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devils' Dictionary_ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html VICUG NYC: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/index.html Read 'Em & Speak: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/books/index.html -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Monday, 4 June 2001 16:36:17 UTC