- From: T. V. Raman <tvraman@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:46:43 -0800 (PST)
- To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <unagi69@concentric.net>
- Cc: WAI Interest Group Emailing List <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, User Agent Guidelines Emailing List <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
In addition to what Greg says: It's not entirely clear whether decolumnizing complex tables in some ad-hock manner as done by things like Lynx is indeed the road to making table-layout pages accessible. Though decolumnizing does alleviate the pain of hearing gibberish-- a significant part of the page's functionality is lost because things that are meant to be in close physical proximity get spread out far apart. Also, most layout-oriented sites only manage to turn into a different form of gibberish when decolumnized in this way the issue gets especially bad with nested tables where the decolumnizing gets even more ad-hock. As an example, try the various yahoo sites e.g. broadcast, loans etc. >>>>> "Gregory" == Gregory J Rosmaita <unagi69@concentric.net> writes: Gregory> aloha, kelly! whilst i agree that the abuse of Gregory> tables for layout purposes has been mitigated Gregory> by advances in user agent and adaptive Gregory> technologies, i would caution against the quote Gregory> the tools at my disposal allow me to Gregory> decolumnize tables that are used for layout, so Gregory> how big an accessibility issue is the use of Gregory> tables for layout unquote train of thought... Gregory> why? Gregory> 1. expense: the tools you listed all represent Gregory> a significant investment on the part of Gregory> individuals who belong to a demographic Gregory> category (those with less than 20/200 vision) Gregory> which is plagued by an unemployment rate (in Gregory> the U.S.) of at least seventy percent (the 70% Gregory> figure i cited is derived from research Gregory> performed by the American Foundation for the Gregory> Blind) Gregory> adding this extra expense to what is already Gregory> (for most) the considerable investment that is Gregory> required to purchase a computer upon which the Gregory> software you listed will run efficiently and as Gregory> intended, constitutes -- at least in my mind -- Gregory> an undue burden on the blind/VI user... Gregory> 2. internationalization: it often takes 6 Gregory> months to well over a year for features that Gregory> are built into the English version of adaptive Gregory> software to be incorporated into non-English Gregory> versions of software... therefore, just Gregory> because you and i (who happen, by accident of Gregory> birth, to reside in the U.S.A.) have access to Gregory> the cutting edge in both adaptive and Gregory> mainstream applications, does not mean that a Gregory> critical mass of other blind users have access Gregory> to the same advances... just a single (and Gregory> well documented) case-in-point will suffice to Gregory> illustrate this point... when Microsoft Active Gregory> Accessibility (MSAA) was first released, Gregory> applying it to a system which was running in Gregory> non-U.S. English mode caused the dialogs and Gregory> messages generated by the system to be output Gregory> in U.S. English... Gregory> 3. mode of internet access: there are still a Gregory> lot of cybernauts who are using antiquated Gregory> technology with which to access web-based Gregory> content... there are myriad reasons for Gregory> limitations upon an individuals ability (and Gregory> willingness) to switch his or her mode of Gregory> access, including: Gregory> A. steep learning curvesf Gregory> B. financial limitations Gregory> B1) shell access, where available, is often far Gregory> cheaper than a POP/PPP account, and is a more Gregory> cost efficient means of obtaining web-based Gregory> content when one is accessing the internet over Gregory> a phone line for which the user is being Gregory> charged per minute... and, it is an Gregory> unfortunate fact of life that most of the users Gregory> who still use shell accounts are saddled with Gregory> an older version of Lynx or the W3 browser, Gregory> which may impose severe limitations upon the Gregory> content available to that user... Gregory> B2) many users with disabilities -- in Gregory> particular the blind -- may not have access to Gregory> computer systems that are capable of running Gregory> the type of software necessary to unravel Gregory> tables that have been used for layout purposes Gregory> -- a significant number of blind users are Gregory> using discarded or cast-off equipment that is Gregory> incapable of running much (if not all) of the Gregory> software you cited Gregory> 4) interoperability -- the use of tables for Gregory> layout is just plain wrong if you want your Gregory> pages to be as universally accessible as Gregory> possible... tables are intended for the Gregory> display of tabular data, not for imposing the Gregory> desktop publishing paradigm upon the web, even Gregory> though that is what they are most commonly used Gregory> to do... therefore, it is imperative that Gregory> authoring tools encourage the use of Gregory> stylesheets to control layout, and that Gregory> authoring tool developers and the users of Gregory> authoring tools place pressure upon UA Gregory> manufacturers to support stylesheets... Gregory> i could go on ad nauseam, but i think that the Gregory> reasons enumerated above suffice to illustrate Gregory> that, despite recent advances in technology, Gregory> the use of tables for layout is definitely Gregory> still a barrier to accessibility... Gregory> gregory. Gregory> At 10:11 AM 11/16/99 -0800, Kelly Ford wrote: >> There has been a great deal of discussion about the use of tables and the >> problems they cause for people who are blind when used for design purposes. > I'm speaking strictly here of tables used for design, not to contain >tabular data. > >I'm wondering how much of a problem such pages pose for folks who are >blind? The browsing combinations I use all decolumnize these types of >pages in some fashion. These include Lynx, Home Page Reader, Internet >Explorer with either JFW 3.31 or Window-Eyes 3.1. > >Kelly Gregory> -------------------------------------------------------- Gregory> He that lives on Hope, dies farting -- Benjamin Gregory> Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1763 Gregory> -------------------------------------------------------- Gregory> Gregory J. Rosmaita <unagi69@concentric.net> Gregory> WebMaster and Minister of Propaganda, VICUG NYC Gregory> <http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/index.html> Gregory> -------------------------------------------------------- -- Best Regards, --raman ------------------------------------------------------------ IBM Research: Human Language Technologies Phone: 1 (408) 927 2608 Email: tvraman@us.ibm.com WWW: http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman PGP: http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.asc Snail: IBM Almaden Research Center, 650 Harry Road San Jose 95120
Received on Tuesday, 16 November 1999 14:42:03 UTC