RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pre-CFC - Updating "programmatically determined link context"

> Does that then mean that if a link is inside a heading, the rest of the heading text would not serve as context for that link?

The example text, prior to linking to the paragraph term, didn’t mention headings.  So, this seems like a question that could have been asked regardless of this PR.

The linking to the paragraph term is helping to clarify https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/2109, which asks if paragraph == p element, which it appears ACT already correctly determined was not the case.

Is your question more to the fact that the example text is not exhaustive in identifying all the ways a link may programmatically receive context?  Because if that’s where this is driving, I agree it’s not exhaustive. Maybe that could  be more overtly stated as such either within this example text – e.g., explicitly stating “for example….” before listing the mentioned paragraph, list items and table cells. But I don’t think that this example needs to be exhaustive, as there are a number of elements that could be mentioned here, and then as you note, it could go further and call out ARIA concepts… that just seems like additional content that could be added to the understanding doc.






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From: Wilco Fiers<mailto:wilco.fiers@deque.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2023 8:47 AM
To: Scott O'Hara<mailto:scott.ohara@microsoft.com>
Cc: Alastair Campbell<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org)<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pre-CFC - Updating "programmatically determined link context"

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Hey Scott,
Thank you for this clarification. Does that then mean that if a link is inside a heading, the rest of the heading text would not serve as context for that link? Am I reading that definition correctly? The spec text is a little confusing to me. The examples explicitly say heading content isn't part of a paragraph, but the definition of paragraph doesn't mention headings. Does that distinction matter to screen readers?

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 2:22 PM Scott O'Hara <scott.ohara@microsoft.com<mailto:scott.ohara@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Hi Wilco,

I think there’s been a misunderstanding/incorrect assumption, as the linking to ‘paragraph’ is not to the paragraph element as you mention in your email.

Rather this is linking to the ‘paragraph’ term in the ‘Paragraphs’ section of the spec.  Just above the linked paragraph term is the note:
The term paragraph<https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#paragraph> as defined in this section is used for more than just the definition of the p<https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/grouping-content.html#the-p-element> element. The paragraph<https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#paragraph> concept defined here is used to describe how to interpret documents. The p<https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/grouping-content.html#the-p-element> element is merely one of several ways of marking up a paragraph<https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#paragraph>.

The section goes on to describe various ways to mark up paragraphs, one example demonstrating how a block of code contains 5 implicit paragraphs where the p element isn’t used at all.

I trust this resolves your concern.

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From: Wilco Fiers<mailto:wilco.fiers@deque.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2023 6:22 AM
To: Alastair Campbell<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org)<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pre-CFC - Updating "programmatically determined link context"

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Hey Alastair,
I'm just putting this side by side with the corresponding ACT rule Link in context is descriptive (https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/5effbb/proposed/#programmatically-determined-link-context).

Couple things stand out to me. The big one is linking paragraph to the <p> element. In the testing we did for that rule that didn't seem to matter to assistive technologies. Screen readers have methods for reading out the parent text block. Whether that is a p element or not seemed irrelevant. Unless our testing was wrong (or I'm misremembering?) I don't think we should be quite so narrow as to limit to only HTML p elements, which is what we're suggesting by adding that link.

I do agree with listitem over list. That was a thing that had occurred to the folks working on this ACT Rule too and is already in the rule. One addition they had also made which should probably be considered as part of this update is to add aria-describedby. That's one of the most direct ways to give context to a link.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 5:55 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi everyone,

In a meeting we agreed to add an errata for the definition of "programmatically determined link context<https://w3c.github.io/wcag/guidelines/#dfn-programmatically-determined-link-context>", in the example.

The core point was that paragraph and table cell are one type of thing, but the example in the definition uses the term "list" instead of "list item".

The change in PR 3362<https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/3362/files> makes it 'list item', and adds a link to the HTML definition of paragraph (as this is an HTML example).

We discussed that here:
https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-ag-minutes#t05


It sailed through the meeting agreement, but before I CFC that does anyone have any concerns with that update?

It would apply to all WCAG 2.x versions.

Kind regards,

-Alastair

--

@alastc / www.nomensa.com<http://www.nomensa.com/>



--
Wilco Fiers
Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager - Facilitator ACT Task Force




--
Wilco Fiers
Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager - Facilitator ACT Task Force
[cid:BCBD7D4B-677E-4B95-AE3F-60005DBD9EE4]