Re: Target Size (Min) Updates

Thanks for the example Alastair.  
Really helps

I think that — if our intent is to exclude navigation links — but not links in text

That we should use  Detlev’s  suggestion  

Generally exempt link targets that are not part of the overall navigation structure (repeated across pages). (I realize "overall" and "page-specific" might be difficult to differentiate)
Generally exempt link targets in all lists that include any list items that contain non-linked text

I think we can word this as
Except 
 links in lists that are in the body of the page and not part of overall navigation repeated across multiple pages. 


gregg

------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden
gregg@vanderheiden.us



> On Jan 9, 2023, at 6:49 AM, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jon, Gregg,
>  
> I think Jon is correct, apologies for using just underline, but for example:
>  
> A link with text
> Another line of text
> Another line with a link
>  
> Would clearly be exempt (therefore pass).
>  
> This example would clearly not be exempt (due to zero non-link text):
> A link
> Another link
>  
> The oddest example would be:
>  
> A line of complete link.
> A line of text and a link.
> A line with no link.
> A line of link except for the full stop.
>  
> Only the first item would NOT be exempt. (I think the full stop counts as text?)
>  
> We’ve looked at defining it by areas of the page, or by type of element, but neither seemed to work well across the different types of sites and technologies covered.
>  
> Personally, I think this is much better than the “inline” exception in the AAA SC, and we should include it by errata in the older SC as well.
>  
> Chair hat on – if anyone wishes to argue that the utility of the SC is not sufficient for the cost, we can discuss that (which would mean getting consensus to remove it). Otherwise, it needs these updates.
>  
> Kind regards,
>  
> -Alastair
>  
>  
> From: Jon Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com <mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>
> Date: Friday, 6 January 2023 at 22:14
> To: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: RE: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates
> 
> Hi Gregg, I read it differently – I read your example with spaced out list would not be needed to pass as is constrained by the line-height of non-target text.
>  
> “The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is otherwise constrained by the line-height of non-target text;</li>”
>  
> What we do want to flag is a list of only links only with no text, e.g. used for navigation.
>  
> Jonathan
>  
> From: Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org> 
> Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 5:01 PM
> To: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> Subject: Re: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates
>  
> Hmmm
>  
> I guess is I vote 0 unless others agree with me on this.  
> (I would vote -1 but I don’t want to derail this if it is just me)
>  
> MY CONCERN
>  
> Right now - the text exception applies only to links in blocks of text like paragraphs etc.   It does not apply to lists however. 
>  
> So 
>  
> Having a link in the sentence is ok because it is 
> in a paragraph of text.  But if I add some bullets
> A link here would fail
> Because it is in a list
> I think this is very bad 
> since these rules will be applied everywhere and not just web content
>  
>  
> That the means if I want to conform 
>  
> And I put in links here in a list
> I need to space out my 
> List in the gappy fashion
> In order to conform
>  
> And then if I have another list in the same document but it doesn’t happen to have a link in it 
> I can then space it 
> Like this
> Even if in the same document
>  
> The only way to not have it be spacey is if I know how to do things like padding etc. 
> Which I do not know how to do in this HTML email 
> And I also don’t know how to do in many other technologies.
> And a very large number of people who make up web pages - do not know how to do padding etc. 
>  
> This will also be applied to word documents etc.   Do you know how to change the line height of the lines in the table of contents in the word document?  (I do - but it is beyond the skills of most people who use word and involved changing styles sheet formats for styles called TOC etc.)
>  
>  
>  
> I predict - that if we keep this as is — this will be the most frequent violation of WGAG by people who tried to make their pages accessible - (and replace 4.1.1 as a selling point error for overlay companies)
>  
> I would suggest that lists that are part of text - be treated as text.
>  
> A slight change something like  
>  
> FROM:
> The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is otherwise constrained by the line-height of non-target text;
> TO:
> The target is in a sentence or a list, or the size of the target is constrained by the line-height of non-target text;
>  
> Or some such.
>  
> I leave it to the group to decide if this is a general concern or just mine.    Personally I think it is a problem. 
>  
>  
> Best 
>  
>  
> gregg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 6, 2023, at 10:36 AM, Ku, JaEun Jemma <jku@uic.edu <mailto:jku@uic.edu>> wrote:
>  
> +1
>  
> Best,
>  
> JaEun Jemma Ku, Ph.D.
> Director of IT Accessibility
> Editor of W3C ARIA Authoring Practice Guide <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FARIA%2Fapg%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TOnWlL82M%2Bu%2B8m6iXxQpdPBII2Srs%2BJHaWfudfI%2FbSk%3D&reserved=0>
> Office for Access and Equity  <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Foae.uic.edu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=euZ5uJkEJsGvqIvRsEnmTA97lFjNUNw4Acfa4ZhD8Zk%3D&reserved=0>and Technology Solutions <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fit.uic.edu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FMAhyO3loYkGpe%2FDqXsAdXsZfslwQxMIuWeFrWK6JL0%3D&reserved=0>
> University of Illinois Chicago <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uic.edu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dcYn3hpKJUbJZ5PTwh8kbw02sgpfm2VlELBbJ%2FdFV4I%3D&reserved=0>
> Email: jku@uic.edu <mailto:jku@uic.edu>
>  
> From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
> Date: Friday, January 6, 2023 11:51 AM
> To: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates
> 
> Call For Consensus — ends Thursday January 12th at 1pm Boston time.
>   
> There are two proposed updates to the exceptions in Target Size (Minimum):
>  
> Inline exception: 
> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2856/files <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2856%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hA0UQgjpYV21bheruOngwRjQnMl2HVMd2SH0yv%2BAY6M%3D&reserved=0>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target offset (including the definition):
> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2798/files <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2798%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iGruzmqAiZ1ibN3IO6sqki%2Bn0HQAyt1S5w2GCmHgbm8%3D&reserved=0>
>  
> These were discussed here:
> https://www.w3.org/2022/12/06-ag-minutes#t02 <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2022%2F12%2F06-ag-minutes%23t02&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LJ%2BAN8dR7hdAeI1wiJrKdGq73yFRpFmp6RXYvcwg6T0%3D&reserved=0>
> And:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2022OctDec/0178.html <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2022OctDec%2F0178.html&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=52q4M5lBIw7%2B7pwU5kwdGPY9NJVejyVTMGNn4d30gSw%3D&reserved=0>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023JanMar/0008.html <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2023JanMar%2F0008.html&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=otw2C%2BZEFeYTuVxu7n9jRHfBJB%2BIyB5bBltvYnypCq8%3D&reserved=0>
> And surveyed (although subsequently updated):
> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-misc-normative/results#xq10 <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2Fwcag22-misc-normative%2Fresults%23xq10&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lUoIwEYZYLGV6AGFvagjrvxhxx%2BOfUwZwCBo5y7PhgM%3D&reserved=0>
>  
> If excepted, we can raise an errata to align the inline exception in Target Size (Enhanced).
>  
> If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before the CfC deadline.
>  
> Kind regards,
>  
> -Alastair
>  
> -- 
>  
> @alastc / www.nomensa.com <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomensa.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cc92ba78c5934426ab92908daf033516a%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C638086400468792143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sk%2F4LK%2FHG2Zc9vPhcAXr80015MiVyQKsu%2FcC%2Fm7FfeU%3D&reserved=0>


gregg

———————————
Professor, University of Maryland, College Park
Founder and Director Emeritus , Trace R&D Center, UMD
Co-Founder Raising the Floor. http://raisingthefloor.org
The Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure (GPII) http://GPII.net
The Morphic project  https://morphic.org