RE: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates

Hi Gregg, I read it differently – I read your example with spaced out list would not be needed to pass as is constrained by the line-height of non-target text.

“The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is otherwise constrained by the line-height of non-target text;</li>”

What we do want to flag is a list of only links only with no text, e.g. used for navigation.

Jonathan

From: Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org>
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 5:01 PM
To: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
Subject: Re: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates

Hmmm

I guess is I vote 0 unless others agree with me on this.
(I would vote -1 but I don’t want to derail this if it is just me)

MY CONCERN

Right now - the text exception applies only to links in blocks of text like paragraphs etc.   It does not apply to lists however.

So

Having a link in the sentence is ok because it is
in a paragraph of text.  But if I add some bullets

  *   A link here would fail
  *   Because it is in a list
I think this is very bad
since these rules will be applied everywhere and not just web content


That the means if I want to conform


  *   And I put in links here in a list
  *   I need to space out my
  *   List in the gappy fashion
  *   In order to conform

And then if I have another list in the same document but it doesn’t happen to have a link in it

  *   I can then space it
  *   Like this
  *   Even if in the same document

The only way to not have it be spacey is if I know how to do things like padding etc.
Which I do not know how to do in this HTML email
And I also don’t know how to do in many other technologies.
And a very large number of people who make up web pages - do not know how to do padding etc.

This will also be applied to word documents etc.   Do you know how to change the line height of the lines in the table of contents in the word document?  (I do - but it is beyond the skills of most people who use word and involved changing styles sheet formats for styles called TOC etc.)



I predict - that if we keep this as is — this will be the most frequent violation of WGAG by people who tried to make their pages accessible - (and replace 4.1.1 as a selling point error for overlay companies)

I would suggest that lists that are part of text - be treated as text.

A slight change something like

FROM:
The target is in a sentence, or the size of the target is otherwise constrained by the line-height of non-target text;
TO:
The target is in a sentence or a list, or the size of the target is constrained by the line-height of non-target text;

Or some such.

I leave it to the group to decide if this is a general concern or just mine.    Personally I think it is a problem.


Best


gregg



On Jan 6, 2023, at 10:36 AM, Ku, JaEun Jemma <jku@uic.edu<mailto:jku@uic.edu>> wrote:

+1

Best,

JaEun Jemma Ku, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility
Editor of W3C ARIA Authoring Practice Guide<https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/>
Office for Access and Equity <https://oae.uic.edu/> and Technology Solutions<https://it.uic.edu/>
University of Illinois Chicago<https://www.uic.edu/>
Email: jku@uic.edu<mailto:jku@uic.edu>

From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Date: Friday, January 6, 2023 11:51 AM
To: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: CFC - Target Size (Min) Updates
Call For Consensus — ends Thursday January 12th at 1pm Boston time.

There are two proposed updates to the exceptions in Target Size (Minimum):


  1.  Inline exception:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2856/files<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2856%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=8mWqq7kzqDUdemxrDmgaB6Y8fSuohphAUe%2BlrtLdUr0%3D&reserved=0>



  2.  Target offset (including the definition):
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2798/files<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2798%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F2%2FNE%2FsrLsZIjFovnyAlZ7vTcqqgHGN1X9csEyDb5MA%3D&reserved=0>

These were discussed here:
https://www.w3.org/2022/12/06-ag-minutes#t02<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2022%2F12%2F06-ag-minutes%23t02&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BKf%2Bj%2F31enXpsNYr49ewt7EvgVINB0glZyNOpWnJnCo%3D&reserved=0>
And:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2022OctDec/0178.html<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2022OctDec%2F0178.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fGJsdHrMD2UXvp4r7zTWSY7%2BXYvsYigHgj9tB2V2eGk%3D&reserved=0>
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023JanMar/0008.html<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2023JanMar%2F0008.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=35C8%2FIZ4zRY0Ww%2FYUER3puy7vAABIlgVznAwqkKH5qg%3D&reserved=0>
And surveyed (although subsequently updated):
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-misc-normative/results#xq10<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2Fwcag22-misc-normative%2Fresults%23xq10&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QJUjm2wg3TXqxTJmt3C5skf4LQjXwRmSj1daQWvF1C0%3D&reserved=0>

If excepted, we can raise an errata to align the inline exception in Target Size (Enhanced).

If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before the CfC deadline.

Kind regards,

-Alastair

--

@alastc / www.nomensa.com<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomensa.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjku%40uic.edu%7C4d90955aa7bd4f922bcb08daf00eb0d4%7Ce202cd477a564baa99e3e3b71a7c77dd%7C0%7C0%7C638086243149297799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eH0bWXHni%2FLD8X3CI%2BrYjbladaskyxIBzc4LiUvBH7E%3D&reserved=0>