Re: Focus not "obscured" to "overlapped"

Thanks Wilco,

I think the safest course is to stick with the version we’ve had for about 2 years, but note in the understanding document that opacity can be a problem (but not a fail) if it impacts visibility.

-Alastair


From: Wilco Fiers <
Hey folks,
There's pro's and con's to both versions I think. I don't much mind which one we go with as long as we add either a definition, note, or something to the understanding document. (ordered from highest to lowest preference).





On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 7:29 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi Melanie,

Going back to where the requirement came from, we had a discussion about this scenario for 2.4.7. We decided the overlapping wasn’t covered by 2.4.7 because there is a “mode” where it is visible: scroll down a bit or move the overlapping element.

As 2.4.11 builds on 2.4.7, I don’t see how that would cover it. The focus indicator can meet 2.4.11 and be overlapped by something else. That’s why the focus-obscured SC exists.

Otherwise you’d sometimes to do those size calculations but also take off the overlap, which I don’t think anyone would want!

Kind regards,

-Alastair


From: Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com<mailto:melanie.philipp@deque.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 18:24
To: Sheri Byrne Haber <sbyrnehaber@vmware.com<mailto:sbyrnehaber@vmware.com>>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>, WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Focus not "obscured" to "overlapped"
Alastair you said:
1. “Obscured” doesn’t define how much opacity would be ok, so theoretically it could be almost solid (but not quite). I don’t think it would be caught by 1.4.11 or 2.4.11 because you can just scroll those into view. Focus-not-obscured is about the visibility as you tab to it.

But, if you tabbed to something that was fully overlapped by something that is "almost solid (but not quite)" wouldn't that fail  2.4.11 because it starts off with "When the keyboard focus indicator is visible...." The keyboard focus would be "visible" when you tabbed to the element but would fail the contrast requirements of 2.4.11.

Melanie Philipp, CPACC, WAS | Director, Services Methodology | 540-848-5220
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
www.deque.com<http://www.deque.com>


On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 1:03 PM Sheri Byrne Haber <sbyrnehaber@vmware.com<mailto:sbyrnehaber@vmware.com>> wrote:
The reason why I am strongly leaning towards number 2 is I don’t think number 1 can be tested in an automated manner.  That shouldn’t be the only reason for choosing number 2, but it should be a factor.

Sheri

From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 10:00 AM
To: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Focus not "obscured" to "overlapped"


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Hi Jon,

I think there’s a choice here between:


  1.  “Obscured” doesn’t define how much opacity would be ok, so theoretically it could be almost solid (but not quite). I don’t think it would be caught by 1.4.11 or 2.4.11 because you can just scroll those into view. Focus-not-obscured is about the visibility as you tab to it.
  2.  “Overlapping” also doesn’t say how much opacity would be ok, but I’d read that as opacity not mattering so you look at the overlap. At AA there can be some overlap, at AAA no overlap. Very transparent things (that are visibly ‘ok’) would fail.

So, we can close a hole and also catch a few (theoretical) things which actually aren’t too bad. Or we can leave the hole and a let a few things through that are not very visible.

If people are not keen then we’ll keep with the status quo.

Kind regards,

-Alastair


From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 14:35
To: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Focus not "obscured" to "overlapped"
I would think that overlapping is more strict because things can overlap but not be obscured or made opaque and in that case if they overlap and have no visual impact then it’s not an issue but yet it could fail.  It seems if there is an opacity issue then it would be caught already by SC 1.4.11 or 2.4.11.    I’m just hesitant to make such a potentially impactful change at the last minute without considering the consequences but I would not object if the group believes this is better and safer.

Jonathan

From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 7:59 AM
To: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Focus not "obscured" to "overlapped"

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Hi everyone,

The last (very last, I hope) potentially normative issue on WCAG 2.2 is:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/2583<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fissues%2F2583&data=05%7C01%7Csbyrnehaber%40vmware.com%7C484b9bd6b8e94da49e3d08da85f238b2%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637969572633722086%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=w0zTbolMQYStK630FMDWGUQT9K2%2F7uEv2jRMcoEt2KA%3D&reserved=0>

Summary: Is it leaving a hole that the component/indicator could be behind a semi-opaque layer?

If so, should we change the SC to talk about overlapping instead of obscuring?

E.g. When a <a>user interface component</a> receives keyboard focus, the component is not entirely overlapped by author-created content.

That means opacity doesn’t figure into the scope, if it overlaps it overlaps.

That change is implemented in:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2634/files<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2634%2Ffiles&data=05%7C01%7Csbyrnehaber%40vmware.com%7C484b9bd6b8e94da49e3d08da85f238b2%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637969572633722086%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ONAVFICyYelHG3GSeVk9lJ5%2FT3ovTVlyVw0nCdosvHA%3D&reserved=0>

Does that work? Any objections?

-Alastair

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--
Wilco Fiers
Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager - Facilitator ACT Task Force
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