Re: [EXT] [Protocols] Agenda for April 8th, 2022 and Proposed Plan

Hi All

A *strong +1* to Jenn's comment, and a reminder that we had originally
agreed that "Protocols measure inputs and not outcomes." (7 January 2022
<https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Protocols#key-decisions-agreed-on-with-date>
).

Yet, as I read the agenda, it still feels like you want to look at
outcomes. But this is where I think we get stuck - because determining
outcomes for things that cannot be measured using ACT-Rules-like
requirements will remain subjective and is the real problem.

Why a problem?
Because if/when you ask an entity whether they succeeded or not, *of
course* they will claim that *in their opinion* they have. Yet, in the
context of legislation, *of course* the litigant will say the contrary,
that they haven't. *You're still trying to measure outcomes! *

Attempting to measure these points of view cannot (I assert) be measured,
for the basic reason that they are opinions. (...and as I used to tease my
daughter, "everyone is entitled to a wrong opinion" ;-) )

Continuing:

   - *Protocol for how to perform testing against a user process.* (JF:
   useful, but not in the context of actually making the content more
   accessible, a 'protocol' like this would outline the steps you need to take
   when testing, but does nothing to guide or inform content creators. And how
   would a user-process be scoped, by whom, and how/why? Every time you
   introduce a potential fork in the user-path [clicking on a help icon for
   example] you have to build out your 'flow' to account for that... it
   doesn't scale! And "happy path" testing will usually 'pass', by my
   experience it's when the user has to deviate from the happy path that
   things start to go sideways...)

   - *Protocol for how an organization can do user testing *(JF: Again, a
   useful set of guidance, but it may not scale either: Susan's Flower Shoppe
   (with 3 stores in the tri-state area) will simply not be in a position to
   do the same type of user-testing as Amazon or Facebook, and attempting to
   determine any kind of stratification (different processes for different
   sized orgs) will also introduce a real quagmire (where do you draw the
   lines, and why?). I think the best you could ever get there would be an
   assertion that user-testing was performed on [date] for the following flows
   [list flows] - but... does that testing then absolutely ensure more
   accessibility? (NOPE) The real win is taking results from user-testing and
   applying that knowledge in the next round of development. *The real
   value of user testing is what you learn from the testing, *and not the
   actual testing itself.)


Might I then respectfully suggest that rather than kicking off asking "*how
we can use a protocol*" that instead we seek consensus on "*what makes a
candidate protocol acceptable for use in WCAG 3*".

If we remain true to earlier agreements (Protocols measure inputs and not
outcomes) then I will suggest that a key commonality would be that it
represents outcomes and guidance geared towards the *creation process*, and
NOT the testing/evaluation/measuring process. Shift Left in practice!

I personally envision adopting protocols as essentially promising (publicly
- for the accountability piece) to do the requisite research to achieve the
outcomes as described, and I argue that winning that education battle is
worthwhile in-and-of-itself.

So when *Making Content...COGA* or *PlainLanguage.gov* outline Outcomes and
then explain the issue and strategies that individual entities could apply
*in context* to their content, they are in fact 'teaching' - and I assert
THAT is the real value of Protocols (as I envision the definition of the
term related to WCAG 3).

So with that definition, now Susan's Flower Shoppe and Amazon could both
"learn what makes Plain Language" and then apply that learning to their
content IN CONTEXT - scale is no longer a problem in the traditional sense
(although it will be harder for larger orgs to remain consistent - but they
will also be in a better position to have policies and processes in place
due to the size of their org)

JF
(who hopes he can join the call Friday morning... stand by)






On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:05 PM Jennifer Strickland <jstrickland@mitre.org>
wrote:

> Hi Jaunita and all,
>
> Thanks for communicating an agenda ahead of time. I think this can be very
> helpful and avoid using the meeting time to agree.
>
> Regarding #2, “Selecting and writing one protocol from scratch as an
> exercise,” I don’t think we would write a protocol. We could document how
> one might document using a protocol.
>
> Previously we said we agreed to use PlainLanguage.gov as the protocol and
> then ended up evaluating what the US Department of Labor documented for
> their efforts to meet, as I read it, the Plain Writing Act, which is
> related but a law rather than a protocol. Now there’s a proposal to test
> “Protocol for how to perform testing against a user process,” using screen
> reader testing as a user process — but do we have a protocol to use?
>
> Can we agree upon a protocol and site to test, go through the process of
> how a person might do that, as we previously agreed to do?
>
> Thanks,
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> *From: *Jaunita George <jaunita_george@navyfederal.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 3:38 PM
> *To: *"public-silver@w3.org" <public-silver@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Cc: *Benjamin Feigel <Benjamin_Feigel@navyfederal.org>
> *Subject: *[EXT] [Protocols] Agenda for April 8th, 2022 and Proposed Plan
> *Resent-From: *<w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 3:37 PM
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> At the last meeting the team mentioned that I’ll be stepping in as a
> co-lead for the Protocols sub-group. I’m really excited to be working with
> you all in this capacity and to do what I can to further this discussion.
> I’m new to this, so please don’t hesitate to reach out if I make a mistake
> or forget something – I’m always available by email and am happy to also
> set aside time to meet and discuss any questions or comments you have. I
> really look forward to talking to you all on Friday. 😊
>
>
>
> *New meeting time:*
>
>
>
> Last meeting, we agreed to move our regular Friday meeting to 8:00am
> instead of 9:00am EST. This means that the Protocols Subgroup will be meet
> this *Friday, April 8th at 8:00 AM Boston Time (1400 UTC). *I sent out an
> invite, but please let me know if you didn’t receive it.
>
>
>
> *Plan for the next few meetings: *
>
>
>
> To help us answer some of these excellent questions we’ve tackling, I
> thought we could focus our efforts in the next few meetings to:
>
>
>
>    1. Achieving consensus on how we can use a protocol.
>
>
>
> After we’ve achieved consensus on that question, we can move on to:
>
>    1. Selecting and writing one protocol from scratch as an exercise.
>
>
>
> This may help us structure our discussions and help us continue moving
> forward on all of the wonderful work everyone’s doing – but let me know if
> you think we should change course at any time. This is only a proposal. 😊
>
>
>
> With this idea in mind, here’s an agenda that outlines three examples that
> show how a protocol could **in theory** be used. We can discuss each of
> these and maybe propose different or additional examples and add to the
> list. The idea will be to select one example and write a specific protocol
> that could be used for that example as an exercise.
>
>
>
> **** Agenda for Friday’s meeting ****
>
>
>
> agenda+ Protocol for a standard where test results vary so you can't
> create a test case. We'll be discussing clear language as an example.
>
> agenda+ Protocol for how to perform testing against a user process. We'll
> discuss screen reader testing as an example. **(*Definition: User Process*
> - Series of user actions, and the distinct interactive views that support
> the actions, where each action is required in order to complete an
> activity).**
>
> agenda+ Protocol for how an organization can do user testing
>
>
>
> *Meeting info:*
>
>
> The Zoom teleconference data is provided at this link:
> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/bfc72cd9-fdfc-4847-826a-01afb9e3f5e7/20211105T090000
>
> We will be on IRC using the W3C server at https://irc.w3.org
> <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1bbHg1R0NpE7wu_f231-AnlS80Y-y5vJTvdOEWJENhb8A72iXd8LCnf3ggBw4-smyidfgNxC8x8umv7E05ehkUF2bZBz2YRztLLv4RKaBjPX52PKUDxmvfMGEBjoozskkcieYlkp03z0RNZpT4OYcOd4hVzq8R7ZxdOFKZWkBKST8tH_692bct2eWCZGqxEH2CqP3AYWJvaQCFfDc0IutM6Rj-U09KIPjPRnc7FV26Wdj10BaRhnKyirh5JjBQBiUijZJ9qa0yX2qAvF17eId_iMnLYZJUiOJFMccNsS6Lx1I4XZzBbvOxVip14Ng8wGLJfXvx15u76cOB7dAeH7XvgpoWs6R_tsGa3dqAcv4R_28w7gc_bd-NL4b_nyhs9ocwFRphYixX3lTUlkEH0Nokh_o6hHppEenQieUgyV9aZx_s1E0SmDtT5e5jzWNn35PIXxCXehg937DHDABmN_O-g/https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Firc.w3.org%2F__%3B%21%21ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ%21ZvVx1wh89EAXhBiorHpgvdpQRlEtQPxaEsJbJ7_Q3MrxtnQGs5lwbIC34ybOl3ZsYw%24>,
> in channel *#silver-protocols*
>
>
>
> *Where to find more information:*
>
>
> These and additional details of our work, including minutes, current,
> and archived draft documents are available on our subgroup wiki page here:
> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Protocols
>
>
>
>
>
> *Jaunita George, JD, PMP, WAS (she/her)*
>
> *QA-ADA Analyst III, **Product Engineering & Delivery Services (ISD)*
>
> *DHS Certified Trusted Tester (TTV5)*
>
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> blue text. Top text reads Web Accessibility Specialist, second line reads
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> <https://www.accessibilityassociation.org/s/wascertification>
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-- 
*John Foliot* |
Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility |
W3C Accessibility Standards Contributor |

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