RE: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

BTW personally I think it feels a bit dangerous to rely on attributes too much as we’ve also discussed yesterday (JF his comments and the work for personalisation) as this may become an escape for everything “as long as we put proper attributes on it, make it programmatically determinable, and there’s AT for it, people can use it so everything can be exempted)




From: Abma, J.D. (Jake)
Sent: woensdag 26 juni 2019 19:47
To: 'Jonathan Avila' <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>; David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: RE: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

True, and should have been part before making conclusions to base SC on.

But on the other hand there’s a lot of value in the way they’ve looked at it  and is about the same feedback we got from also A11Y people when working on 1.4.11 (with examples in the threads, see Alastair’s mail)

Added a question in the Github about the programmatic determinable possibility we’ve talked about yester day for another possible SC. Will that be the glue between both sides?

From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com]
Sent: woensdag 26 juni 2019 19:22
To: Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.com<mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.com>>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>; David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>; James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk<mailto:A.James@soton.ac.uk>>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

Why have an exception just for buttons when the same thing can be said about page tabs, inputs with placeholders, and nearly every other UI element with text such as listboxes, drop downboxes, pill boxes, etc.  An exception for buttons seems arbitrary.

Ø  [Jake wrote] Same results Google / Material Design had in their presentation with the WG.
And this is exactly why I was concerned with the results of that study being used to drive decisions.  It was not looking at other factors such as speed, fatigue, trial and error, etc. that disproportionately affect people with cognitive and learning disabilities as well as users with low vision.  It’s inconsistent with other WCAG failure techniques such as F73.

Jonathan

From: Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.com<mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 1:06 PM
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>; David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>; James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk<mailto:A.James@soton.ac.uk>>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Same results Google / Material Design had in their presentation with the WG.

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com]
Sent: dinsdag 25 juni 2019 21:33
To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>; James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk<mailto:A.James@soton.ac.uk>>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

I think that is already the case. There are many case where users can identify that buttons with just text are buttons based on positioning and spacing and not relying just on the presence of an underline or other feature.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Head of Accessibility
Adobe

akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
http://twitter.com/awkawk


From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 3:21 PM
To: "James A." <A.James@soton.ac.uk<mailto:A.James@soton.ac.uk>>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
Subject: Re: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

I think that is a reasonable middle ground.


Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 2:16 PM James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk<mailto:A.James@soton.ac.uk>> wrote:
I raised a similar question back in February which Alistair kindly responded to. I have added a summary of this to the GitHub page and agree that it would be useful to add an example to the understanding document.

If the shape and size of the hit area is out of scope of 1.4.11 then should text on buttons be treated as per link text for 1.41.1 in that the link text should have sufficient contrast and additional visual cues with surrounding text when colour alone is used to identify it as per technique G183 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G183.html


Best wishes

Abi James

From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
Sent: 25 June 2019 19:00
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
Subject: Re: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

Hi Alastair

I've reread the thread and see that our current interpretation is that in order to assess whether the border or background is "required to identify" the button, we need to imagine any border or background less than 3:1 is not there, and then determine whether it is enough to know its a button.

So the text (with positioning, space etc) must sufficiently identify it is a button, since we are disregarding the border and/or background that is below 3:1.

What would be an example of a button that has a text label that fails 1.4.11?   In light of this interpretation, (which I can accept, since its there in the thread), I can't come up with failing example of a stand alone button that fails 1.4.11, as long as their is space around it etc...

If I'm right in that I think we should add that to the Understanding Doc.


Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

Tel:  613-806-9005

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 1:26 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi David,

To set the context, this was part of a conversation just prior to 2.1 publication, see this thread:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2018AprJun/0542.html<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2018AprJun%2F0542.html&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C68bc935c0f924e768c6008d6f997187d%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0&sdata=64NSPPwSpKZA02jMjXXh%2Fd4g9VPZhzwAlYbD9XGSRWo%3D&reserved=0>

Also, with that and subsequent discussions we had a large update to non-text contrast:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2018AprJun/0542.html<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2018AprJun%2F0542.html&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C68bc935c0f924e768c6008d6f997187d%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0&sdata=64NSPPwSpKZA02jMjXXh%2Fd4g9VPZhzwAlYbD9XGSRWo%3D&reserved=0>

The TL;DR was:
There are instances where having a background or subtle border is not an issue, and requiring it would be likely to cause designers to remove them, rather than up the contrast.

HTH,

-Alastair

Apologies for typos, sent from a mobile.
________________________________
From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:38:35 PM
To: WCAG; Alastair Campbell; Andrew Kirkpatrick
Subject: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

On the call "Example 3" on this page was presented as a pass of 1.4.11.
https://alastairc.uk/tests/wcag21-examples/ntc-focus-styles.html<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Falastairc.uk%2Ftests%2Fwcag21-examples%2Fntc-focus-styles.html&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C68bc935c0f924e768c6008d6f997187d%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0&sdata=xJMY%2FtCgy%2BLAitkH5OX3JtKpL%2BxQMe3M%2Bd6u2Mfxh%2B0%3D&reserved=0>

 It confused me and I want to check my assumptions with others on our current interpretation of 1.4.11. I would like to get others opinion on two scenarios. Do these pass of fail?

1) a button has a background but it is less than 3:1 contrast  (no border). The button text is 4.5:1 on the button background as per 1.4.3.
2) a button has a visible border and background but both are less than 3:1 contrast against the page color. The button text is 4.5:1 on the button background as per 1.4.3

The text of the SC is this:
          Visual information required to identify user interface components and states ... [has 3:1 contrast]

Is the text "Example 3" enough to know that this is a user interface component without perceiving the grey background.
If Example #3 had a border less than 3:1 would it pass 1.4.11

My feeling is that the words "Example 3" is not enough to know that this is an interactive control.  If an author is creating a background for a button to indicate it is a button, doesn't that background need to meet 3:1?

And if an author puts a border around a button, doesn't that border need to meet 3:1?

Whatever our consensus on what is necessary to know a button is an interactive control, I'd like to make it explicit in the understanding for 1.4.11.

My interpretation is that if there is no background and border, then low vision people have no disadvantage but if there is a visible border or background then the SC kicks in and there needs to be sufficient contrast in the button or border. What do others think?


Cheers,
David MacDonald



CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

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