Re: Bug: Firefox Accessibility Inspector reports placeholder attribute as eligible for accessible name

>  there are some implementations where it moves above the input field to
remain visible, which would seem to make it compliant--unless I've missed
something.

The current proposed title is
"Failure of SC 3.3.2 due to using the HTML placeholder attribute for a
label on form fields"

Floating labels don't use the HTML placeholder attribute, and could not.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

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On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Mike Elledge <melledge@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi David--
>
> It would be clearer to me, at least, since there are some implementations
> where it moves above the input field to remain visible, which would seem to
> make it compliant--unless I've missed something.
>
> Thanks for the testing comment as well--
>
> Mike
>
> On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 12:08:40 PM EDT, David MacDonald <
> david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> > Wouldn't the failure also have to include "when the placeholder
> disappears on focus" or some such?
>
> The html placeholder attribute disappears on focus by design, so I think
> its Ok, but I'm fine with making the title longer if it will be clearer to
> some.
>
> > Also, a bit tangential, is anyone else having problems with the latest
> FF and JAWS versions not working well together?  I'm finding that keystroke
> navigation (h, l, etc.) doesn't work.
>
> I don't test JAWS with FF, I'd use Chrome, and fallback to IE ...
>
> I will often use NVDA with FF
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
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>
>
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> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Mike Elledge <melledge@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi David--
>
> Wouldn't the failure also have to include "when the placeholder disappears
> on focus" or some such?
>
> Also, a bit tangential, is anyone else having problems with the latest FF
> and JAWS versions not working well together?  I'm finding that keystroke
> navigation (h, l, etc.) doesn't work.
>
> Mike Elledge
>
> On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 10:52:23 AM EDT, David MacDonald <
> david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> It might make sense to add a failure:
>
> "Failure of SC 3.3.2 due to using the HTML placeholder attribute for a
> label on form fields"
>
> I could write that up and do a pull request on Github.
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> twitter.com/davidmacd
>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
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> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
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>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 9:41 AM, Newton, Brooks (Legal) <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.
> com <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>> wrote:
>
> Thank you, David, for the excellent write up and explanation of how
> placeholder works with current user agent and assistive technology
> combinations.  Also, thanks for providing clarity on the intent of SC
> 3.3.2. I’ve got your blog post bookmarked.
>
>
>
> Also, many thanks to Stefan, Andrew, Glenda, Jon, Patrick and Eric for the
> valuable contributions to this thread.  Glenda, great summary of the issues
> at play with using placeholder text.  My understanding of this topic is
> substantially improved having read everyone’s thoughts on this subject.
>
>
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 8:09 PM
> *To:* Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>
> *Cc:* Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org>; Schnabel, Stefan <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>;
> Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Bug: Firefox Accessibility Inspector reports placeholder
> attribute as eligible for accessible name
>
>
>
> I've done some testing and posted the results on Placeholder and offer my
> opinion on what WCAG says, and my memories of what 3.3.2 meant when we were
> writing it.
>
>
>
> http://davidmacd.com/blog/is- placeholder-accessible-label. html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__davidmacd.com_blog_is-2Dplaceholder-2Daccessible-2Dlabel.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=u1jVO0Q2MaEBF_n7bkWBDdilqcK3chxASBjOA3oWrFY&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_davidmacdonald100&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=2G0PyiGOzGRrFbuCwET8RhiOp8RfowVS80MS8_LCsr0&e=>
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> GitHub
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>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
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>
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>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com> wrote:
>
> I think I can find a11y peace with the thought of placeholder being (as a
> last ditch choice) allowed to serve as accessible name.  And agreeing with
> Jon Avila that that placeholder value serving as an accessible name needs
> to be meaningful as a label.
>
>
>
> Eric, Patrick,  is it still valid for me to ask for F68 to be updated to
> include placeholder? https://www.w3. org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-
> 20161007/F68 <https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/F68>
>
>
>
> And if placeholder can be an accessible name, then my dang codepen example
> would pass WCAG 2.1 SC 2.5.3 Label in Name  (sigh)
>
>
>
> And then failing my codepen on SC 3.3.2 Labels or Instructions (when the
> placeholder disappears and there is no visible label).   (nodding in
> agreement to Brooks)
>
>
>
> Thanks for entertaining this question and helping me see more clearly.
>
> G
>
>
> *glenda sims* <glenda.sims@deque.com>, cpacc
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.accessibilityassociation.org_certification&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=GFDnfNnBOfxgySz7U9F_swJk6GzEL15VaWMs1A1HTu0&e=>
>  | team a11y lead | 512.963.3773
>
>
>
>         deque systems
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.deque.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=89tIR9rgOqPHeKvm6bmrWc6H3w7ZcOMstQMM28gVfyI&e=>
>   accessibility for good
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org> wrote:
>
> <w3c-hat off>
>
> Hi Glenda, all,
>
> Just a quick reminder that if something that is not a WCAG compliant
> technique, it does not mean that browsers are not allowed to surface it in
> their APIs.
>
> If browsers decide to surface the placeholder as an accessible name with
> the alternative of having no description at all, I think that’s their
> discretion. I also think that screen reader users would/do appreciate that
> as it renders form fields accessible to them where they otherwise wouldn't
> be for them. (There are accessibility issues for other Groups.) I
> personally don’t feel it serves them well to be thrown under the bus for
> theoretical purity.
>
> As for the argument that having it in the accessible name calculation
> would encourage developers to use just placeholders, I don’t feel that’s
> valid from my day-to-day observations. They use the pattern because it is
> modern and because they can. Most developers don’t care about the
> accessibility of their websites, still. But they know they have to add some
> text to the field so there is a chance that users can fill it out.
>
> I totally think “just placeholders” should be flagged in testing tools and
> maybe in browsers and validators, too, if the group decides it violates
> WCAG. But I think if browsers want to let assistive technologies grasp onto
> that last straw of an accessible name, let them have it.
>
> Eric
>
> On 8 Aug 2018, at 19:43, Glenda Sims wrote:
>
> Alastair,
>
>
>
> Would it be possible to bring up this question on the next AGWG agenda?
> Reason I'm dealing with the question right now...we are assessing client
> sites for WCAG 2.1 SC 2.5.3 Label in Name https://www.w3.org/TR/
> WCAG21/#label-in-name <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#label-in-name>
>
>
>
> I think it is important, that a11y experts be able to agree on whether the
> following code snippet minimally passes:
>
>
>
> WCAG 2.1 SC 1.3.1 Info and Relationships
>
> WCAG 2.1 SC 2.5.3 Label in Name
>
>
>
> Code snippet: <input type="text"  name="first"  placeholder="First Name"
> id="first">
>
> Sample of code to test: https://codepen.io/ goodwitch/pen/OwEmEw
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__codepen.io_goodwitch_pen_OwEmEw&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=9YAF65uCv_JYHHvpkD-8DGB2LG8uMi-GrKtBnGa482c&e=>
>
> Firefox Accessibility Inspector reports this field as having an accessible
> name of “First Name”
>
>
>
> I believe it fails both
>
>    - 1.3.1 Info and Relationships
>
>
>    - (based on F68 https://www.w3.org/TR/ 2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-
>       20161007/F68
>       <https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/F68>)
>
>
>    - 2.5.3 Label in Name
>
>
>    - because the placeholder text fails to be the accessible name based
>       on F68
>
> In the interest of helping people with disabilities...I am starting to see
> what Jamie Teh is saying about placeholder being like title.  And I'm about
> to say something super controversial...do we need to update Failure
> Technique 68.
>
>
>
> Peace out,
>
> Glenda
>
>
>
>
> *glenda sims* <glenda.sims@deque.com>, cpacc
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.accessibilityassociation.org_certification&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=GFDnfNnBOfxgySz7U9F_swJk6GzEL15VaWMs1A1HTu0&e=>
>  | team a11y lead | 512.963.3773
>
>
>
>         deque systems
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.deque.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=tn3Zye3R_PBJ2o8yLqfYtSRbqvAzByfmpy1CLSlllCM&s=89tIR9rgOqPHeKvm6bmrWc6H3w7ZcOMstQMM28gVfyI&e=>
>   accessibility for good
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:01 AM, Schnabel, Stefan <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
> wrote:
>
> Should this be exposed by the browser to the accessibility API as "foo" or
> not, if there's nothing else giving the input a programmatic name?
>
>
>
> It should. But it violates WCAG requirement for VISIBLE label for input,
> so it is an authoring error, too.
>
>
>
> There is a temptation in saying “browsers! Don”t map authoring errors”.
> But this is like expecting from your camera “don’t photograph this! It’s
> pathetic”. Such an approach lacks simplicity and makes things difficult to
> predict from a technical perspective.
>
>
>
> The more interesting case is
>
>
>
> <input placeholder=“foo” aria-label=“bar” title=“fine”>
>
>
>
> How can it be granted that on focus screen readers will speak all three
> exploiting the API mapping and not using the DOM info?
>
>
>
> - Stefan
>
>
>
> Von meinem iPad gesendet
>
>
> Am 07.08.2018 um 22:47 schrieb Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>:
>
>
>
> On 07/08/2018 21:37, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> ...
>
> The reason why placeholder is not advisable as a sole labelling mechanism
> is because it has usability and accessibility (e.g. for COGA) issues. But
> is that a reason not to have browsers expose it? Should they expose it only
> if there's another accessible name, and just as an accessible description?
> Or not at all?
>
>
> For that matter, I could make an input with just, say, aria-label, and
> that gets exposed as the accessible name...e.g. just
>
> <input aria-label="foo">
>
> Should this be exposed by the browser to the accessibility API as "foo" or
> not, if there's nothing else giving the input a programmatic name?
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk
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> | https://github.com/ patrickhlauke
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> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Eggert
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>