Re: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

Thanks for the input all, interesting.

Josh

Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
>   * As I said before, my opinion is that there is no
>     programmatic/accessible name provided for the language select
>     input on the Wikipedia home page.  It doesn’t matter if there is a
>     label or not.   This implementation fails SC 2.4.12. 
>
> Yes, that’s what I said – there is no programmatic name for the 
> language and no visual label for the language – we are in agreement.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> *Level Access*
>
> jon.avila@levelaccess.com
>
> 703.637.8957 office
>
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> *From:*Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com 
> <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 5, 2018 5:42 PM
> *To:* Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>; Jake.Abma@ing.com; 
> josh@interaccess.ie; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> *Subject:* RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
> Hey All,
>
> As I said before, my opinion is that there is no 
> programmatic/accessible name provided for the language select input on 
> the Wikipedia home page.  It doesn’t matter if there is a label or 
> not.   This implementation fails SC 2.4.12.
>
> No matter how you analyze the label in this example, there will never 
> be a label in the name, because the name doesn’t exist.
>
> Now, if “EN” were in fact the label and the name were in fact 
> “English,” then I would say this implementation also fails, but for 
> different reasons.  This SC was primarily introduced as a way of 
> making sure that spoken “labels” would match up with 
> programmatically-determinable names, right?  I don’t know about you, 
> but when I pronounce “EN” it sounds phonetically like the word “in.”  
> And, when I pronounce the first syllable of the word “English,” it 
> sounds phonetically like “ing.”  The two phonemes simply don’t match 
> up.  This brings up the broader issue of how contractions, 
> abbreviations and other shortened forms of words don’t always sound 
> like the words they represent.  And, therefore, I think that 
> abbreviations may not be reliably used to satisfy the label in name 
> requirement. What are others’ thoughts on this?
>
> Brooks
>
> *From:*Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 05, 2018 3:16 PM
> *To:* Abma, J.D. (Jake); Newton, Brooks (Legal); josh@interaccess.ie 
> <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
> Wikipedia definitely has some accessibility issues on this page.
>
> From the stand point of SC 3.3.2  - G167 
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G167> can be 
> used for the search field itself – but not the Language select.
>
> The search field doesn’t have a text label so I don’t think 2.4.12 
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#label-in-name> applies.
>
> The language  select doesn’t have a programmatic name – so it fails SC 
> 1.3.1/4.1.2.
>
> Regarding SC 2.4.12 – this is tricky because there the visual label – 
> the value for the location is not sufficient to label the element and 
> thus it fails SC 3.3.2 – but by virtue of failing both 3.3.2 and 1.3.1 
> it would also fail SC 2.4.12 unless we are saying no name is = to no 
> label – in which case null = null which is true.
>
> Jonathan
>
> *From:*Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.com <mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.com>>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 5, 2018 12:52 PM
> *To:* Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com 
> <mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>; josh@interaccess.ie 
> <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org 
> <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com 
> <mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
> Hi Brooks/Josh,
>
> Funny thing here is they probably implemented it incorrectly as the 
> 'for' and 'id' indeed don't match but the 'for' and the 'name' 
> attribute on the input does.
>
> But if I remember well, referencing a comment from Jonathan not so 
> long ago, it doesn't matter as the intention of the visible text in 
> this case, the "EN" does serve as the label. The example mentioned by 
> Jonathan was a search field with no label where the button with the 
> text "search" serves the label purpose.
>
> So I'm wondering whether​ the "wrongly" implemented for/id combo (if 
> not done on purpose) matters...
>
> @Jonathan ?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com 
> <mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com> 
> <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com 
> <mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 5, 2018 5:16 PM
> *To:* josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; 
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
> Hi Josh,
>
> From my perspective, this isn’t a relevant test for 2.4.12.  I’m no 
> accessible name computation expert, but I don’t think the language 
> select input on the Wikipedia home page has an accessible name.  In 
> other words, there is no programmatically bound label text associated 
> with the input.
>
> What is wrapped in <label> markup has not been programmatically bound 
> to the associated select input.  Specifically the value of the 
> forattribute in the labelattribute doesn’t match the value of the 
> idattribute on the selectelement.
>
> So, the text value of the selected option in <select> is what’s 
> announced by JAWS and NVDA as the name of the input.  The selected 
> option, by default, is “English” when I browse to Wikipedia from my 
> stateside location.   But the word “English” just a heuristic guess 
> that some AT make at what might be a discernible label for this input 
> is, right?  Anyone on the list, please tell me if I’m wrong here.
>
> So there is no accessible name to match up with the visible label.
>
> Brooks
>
> *From:*Joshue O Connor - InterAccess [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 02, 2018 10:40 AM
> *To:* WCAG
> *Subject:* Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
> Question on a potential edge case - I'm not sure this a fail if the 
> visual label is abbreviated but still comprehensible and following an 
> established convention? [1]
>
> Accessible matches Visible. The visible and accessible name of a label 
> match
>
> TEXT
> https://www.wikipedia.org 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wikipedia.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=TPkFAcInejPKzkUFXeZM4xQ2HAxLjoPiAWeTwsdOrx4&s=qpilYEg2ztSqbzGGHsVLHzL5oaRBcJlzhZMNUom9F3Q&e=> 
> => Search field has language dropdown with text "EN" but has name 
> "English" (or other language when selected)
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [1] 
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Implementations#2.4.12_Label_in_Name 
>
>
> __
>
> Joshue O Connor
>
> Director / *InterAccess.ie*
>
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-- 
Joshue O Connor
Director | InterAccess.ie