Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?

Jake,

Splitting apart your question:

Re: 1.3.1 - I think it would be fairly uncontroversial to say that most
experts today loathe the fact that 1.3.1 is too ambiguous, and open to
subjective interpretation. (Andrew has asked that we shelve the Failure
Technique discussion, but concerns around that discussion are to me 'proof'
that we sorta missed the boat on that SC). Specificity with regard to
conformance claims and testing are (at least to me) preferred over general
and generic requirements that try to address all problems. So, we can
either provide the "list" as part of the normative text for a new SC, or,
alternatively point to a "locked-down" or milestone release of an external
specification's list. As was previously noted, this is why the W3C still
has dot-releases of HTML 5, whilst WHAT WG has a "Living Standard" (an
oxymoron, but don't get me started
<http://john.foliot.ca/standards-are-not-just-stuff-and-nonesense/>).

Re: 4.1.2 - Personally I see the lack of a specified list of roles as a
potential problem. If and when Assistive Technology and the Accessibility
APIs did add a new value, we'll run into the same conformance claim problem
I fear now: a fixed and static page that met conformance when it was
authored, and has never changed (legacy content), is yet now suddenly out
of conformance because an external spec changed, because the conformance
claim never mentioned "...the known and specified roles found in ARIA 1.0
in 2017".

As I noted, I think we can fix this problem with new language around how to
specify conformance claims (i.e. also list all dependencies with dated
versions), but that is a change we'll need to discuss and apply to the WCAG
document itself, as currently the section on making conformance claims is
itself normative... (https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#conformance-reqs)

JF

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl> wrote:

> But John, 1.3.1 and 4.1.2 also don’t have a reference, so why in 2.1 we do
> need it?
>
> I really try to see the 100% water tight proper reason but Alex could have
> said that also back in the days for 1.3.1 and 4.1.2. And yes, we need to
> keep up with the new developments and things will change.
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
> *Sent:* vrijdag 12 januari 2018 21:30
> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <
> akirkpat@adobe.com>; Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>; Marc
> Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> Jason,
>
>
>
> Your point is taken, but we also need, as Alex Li noted, to know when to
> 'stop' testing (today and in 3 years time), and so we need to reference
> that "list" somehow.
>
>
>
> Additionally, unless we change the normative requirements for Conformance
> statements to also reference external dependant specifications, a dated
> conformance claim that purports to meet a WCAG 2.1 SC that has a "living
> standard" component to it means that the conformance claim *could* become
> invalid if the supporting non-milestoned spec changes - something we need
> to acknowledge and "protect against" for legal reasons. (Having our
> specification be the de facto legal requirements is a double-edged sword
> unfortunately).
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 2:19 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> I think efforts to insist on a fixed and normative list of terms or
> concepts stated in the WCAG specification would move us away from the
> notion of technology-independent guidelines that are designed to apply to
> changing technical capabilities over time, as exemplified by 1.3.1 and
> 4.1.2. I’m not supportive of this direction of development for WCAG.
>
>
>
> *From:* Abma, J.D. (Jake) [mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.nl]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2018 3:15 PM
> *To:* 'Andrew Kirkpatrick' <akirkpat@adobe.com>; 'John Foliot' <
> john.foliot@deque.com>; White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>; Marc Johlic <
> marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>
> *Subject:* RE: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> I see and get your point, doesn’t make it more easy… J but this is also
> the same for 4.1.2 as mentioned before where we judge new components on new
> roles, states and values when they become conventional.
>
>
>
> Or do we have another case with 4.1.2 except that we would like a fixed
> minimum list to start with?
>
>
>
> (mind blowing..)
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <akirkpat@adobe.com>]
>
> *Sent:* vrijdag 12 januari 2018 21:08
> *To:* Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; 'John Foliot' <
> john.foliot@deque.com>; White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>; Marc Johlic <
> marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> So the way to make it more stable is to allow the set of terms to change
> in technologies that change even faster than our spec does?  I’m not
> following the reasoning…
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C32df36e31d2845dc5d4e08d559f9192c%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513848791103419&sdata=DX%2BFa0plJO%2B855uaQdomUJN%2FLuRvTgyta3e0jNznkhw%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From: *"Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>
> *Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 15:01
> *To: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, John Foliot <
> john.foliot@deque.com>, "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc: *Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>, Marc Johlic <
> marc.johlic@gmail.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject: *RE: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> That could be true but I think we would like our SC as stable as possible
> and not change with every new release!
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <akirkpat@adobe.com>]
>
> *Sent:* vrijdag 12 januari 2018 21:00
> *To:* Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; 'John Foliot' <
> john.foliot@deque.com>; White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>; Marc Johlic <
> marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> Don’t forget that like HTML we are planning to update WCAG more regularly
> also.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7Cdf107cfb7b3b4e1453e508d559f75421%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513841194260566&sdata=X%2BtKbJHvJQ5hp58ajm%2BV1kRnBx%2FRoz38vHFWTS5ZGWU%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From: *"Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>
> *Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 14:57
> *To: *John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>, "White, Jason J" <
> jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc: *Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <
> akirkpat@adobe.com>, Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>, WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject: *RE: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking at it from a bit more distance I just have a gut feeling we do
> need a fixed minimum list, I guess most of us agree.
>
> But also it feels not right to point to HTML 5.2 although it is the best
> choice for this moment because it may be this moment only.
>
> Referring to old/outdated specs (5.2 will become outdated) are weakening
> this SC day by day while we would like it to strengthen in time.
>
>
>
> Can’t we add something like “the latest version of the HTML spec at the
> time of building / testing”.
>
> This way you’ll judge it in the moment of time and this will create growth
> possibilities.
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com <john.foliot@deque.com>]
>
> *Sent:* vrijdag 12 januari 2018 20:14
> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <
> akirkpat@adobe.com>; Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> Hi Jason,
>
>
>
> I think I will have to agree to disagree. One way of avoiding this new SC
> altogether could be to state that your conformance claim is based on HTML
> 4.1 and thus "not supported". We need a fixed normative minimum list, and
> whether we point to the list in HTML 5.2, or include that list directly in
> our Recommendation I still maintain that without the fixed and stable list,
> it will be very difficult to test and make assertions toward. As Alex Li
> noted on the call the other day, testers will also need to know when to
> 'stop' testing (i.e. when they reach the end of the list), and that list
> cannot be changing over time.
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:05 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> You can handle the conformance by specifying HTML 5.1, (substituting the
> appropriate version) in the “list of Web content technologies relied upon”
> in any conformance claim. Using HTML in a “living standard” way doesn’t
> require you to omit a version number – or, for that matter, a range of
> version numbers – from any assertion of conformance as of a given date.
>
>
>
> Thus, I think that without an explicit list of form fields, a success
> criterion along the lines that I wrote in response to Andrew’s proposal for
> 1.3.4 remains reliably testable.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2018 1:55 PM
> *To:* Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>
> *Cc:* Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
> jjwhite@ets.org>; Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> > AWK:  If I use HTML in a “living standard” way today and include all of
> the appropriate meanings/purposes that are defined, but then HTML adds
> meanings, how will I be able to handle my conformance? I haven’t changed
> the site, but the list changes. We can’t leave that open-ended.
>
>
>
> ​+1!​
>
>
>
>
>
> > MG:  If something gets deprecated in 5.2, my page based on 5.1 is going
> to continue to use that deprecated element until such time as I update the
> page. How is this different?
>
>
>
> Personally, think there remains a bit of a gap here regarding conformance
> statements, an area WCAG 2.0 is (IMHO) a little weak on. Specifically,
> we've never really talked about (that I know of) this point or idea of
> dated and referenced conformance claims as we progress along the
> dot-release path. I agree with your perception here, but unless we have
> that documented, it is a subjective opinion (I may agree with it, but I
> also believe it is still an opinion). This is also related to the other
> discussion (which we've re-shelved per Andrew's request) w.r.t. the
> Landmarks Failure Technique and any other new Techniques for 2.0.
>
>
>
> Perhaps this is an area of further discussion for the WG once we finalize
> the immediate tasks in front of us? (i.e. a potential topic for a CSUN F2F
> session?)
>
>
>
>
>
> > AC: As per Michael’s email on the other thread: Conformance is at a
> particular date, so it’s the standard at the time.
>
>
>
> WCAG 2.0 states:
>
> Required Components of a Conformance Claim
>
> Conformance claims are *not required*. Authors can conform to WCAG 2.0
> without making a claim. However, if a conformance claim is made, then the
> conformance claim *must* include the following information:
>
> 1.    *Date* of the claim
>
> 2.    *Guidelines title, version and URI *"Web Content Accessibility
> Guidelines 2.0 at http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2F2008%2FREC-WCAG20-20081211%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=Zpx93xVQXDqw9HTyE9GgSRWOIKf1VLQhnUfV%2BNYeFFk%3D&reserved=0>
> "
>
> 3.    *Conformance level* satisfied: (Level A, AA or AAA)
>
> 4.    *A concise description of the Web pages*, such as a list of URIs
> for which the claim is made, including whether subdomains are included in
> the claim.
>
> *Note 1: *The Web pages may be described by list or by an expression that
> describes all of the URIs included in the claim.
>
> *Note 2: *Web-based products that do not have a URI prior to installation
> on the customer's Web site may have a statement that the product would
> conform when installed.
>
> 5.    A list of the *Web content technologies
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG20%2F%23technologydef&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=SA13I5jXpDHxLKu7YYgib3lTFAYRWRN9nhZ2e6vYL0A%3D&reserved=0> relied
> upon
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG20%2F%23reliedupondef&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=NIR1%2BHwV8QgLLEwKRdV8OXUf4gEFHmzJr2SfAosldeE%3D&reserved=0>*
> .
>
>
>
> ...which brings us back to the 'problem' that Techniques are not "...the
> standard at the time..." because they are not dated or normative or
> attached to a particular version of WCAG - there is no "time" associated to
> them. We can fix that problem, but it exists today.
>
>
>
> Likewise for any "list" that we want to 'import' from another W3C Rec. -
> we need a dated and referenceable Recommendation for today, for tomorrow,
> or in 2028.  For conformance claims, we need "snapshots" or milestone
> releases that do not change, so that they can be referenced directly in the
> Claim "forever".
>
>
>
> > AC: This was one of the reasons that the W3C has tried to ‘version’ HTML
> though, so your conformance could also reference a specific version
>
>
>
> Exactly. Pointing to a specific version of HTML5 allows that referenceable
> feature. @gowerm, if any of these autofill values were to be deprecated
> down the road, I'm willing to bet that the browsers will still support them
> (unless there is a critical security issue or similar catastrophic failure
> being introduced - at which point we'd likely have to amend our Rec too),
> because the browsers do not want to deliberately "break" legacy content.
> Meanwhile, if the list were to expand, those new additions would either be
> Best Practices, or we would need to re-address the SC (or augment it
> somehow) to add those new token values.
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> ​
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>
> wrote:
>
> If something gets deprecated in 5.2, my page based on 5.1 is going to
> continue to use that deprecated element until such time as I update the
> page. How is this different?
>
> 4.1.2 does not define a spec for name, role or value.
>
>
> Michael Gower
> IBM Accessibility
> Research
>
> 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmaps.google.com%2F%3Fq%3D1803%2BDouglas%2BStreet%2C%2BVictoria%2C%2BBC%2B%25C2%25A0V8T%2B5C3%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=WdwW9i%2FmE%2Br4%2FIY8CbL2eRGvp1P3DTrGfre%2B85KvANc%3D&reserved=0>
>  V8T 5C3
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmaps.google.com%2F%3Fq%3D1803%2BDouglas%2BStreet%2C%2BVictoria%2C%2BBC%2B%25C2%25A0V8T%2B5C3%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=WdwW9i%2FmE%2Br4%2FIY8CbL2eRGvp1P3DTrGfre%2B85KvANc%3D&reserved=0>
> gowerm@ca.ibm.com
> voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034
>
>
>
> From:        Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>
> To:        Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>, "White, Jason J" <
> jjwhite@ets.org>
> Cc:        WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Date:        2018-01-12 10:05 AM
> Subject:        Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> If not referenced in the SC, then the conformance can change.
>
>
>
> If I use HTML in a “living standard” way today and include all of the
> appropriate meanings/purposes that are defined, but then HTML adds
> meanings, how will I be able to handle my conformance? I haven’t changed
> the site, but the list changes. We can’t leave that open-ended.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=kWRJQWKQ5b515lhSoBWWon1ROoEDOySE%2Ff2f2f8dFwA%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From: *Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>
> * Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:58
> * To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> * Cc: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> * Subject: *Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> I agree with Jason.  I like having HTML 5.2 (or any standard) for a stake
> in the ground, but I think we can get around having that in the actual SC
> language as Jason describes..   We can reference it in the Understanding.
>
>
>
> -Marc
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:55 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> No, I think it’s testable in that it only applies to the field types
> supported by the technology being used.
>
>
>
> *From:*Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com]
> * Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2018 12:53 PM
> * To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; Marc Johlic <
> marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>
>
> * Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> Jason,
>
> My concern is that without attaching a reference to a defined list this
> becomes untestable.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftwitter.com-252Fawkawk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257Cd6ddd9365f2340afe82108d559e61973-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513767211470990-26sdata-3D0pLgccc5eXldfA-252BrBDpNp6nNeOYT64pJHz5ffOnTWT4-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DjIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg%26s%3Di1atiYmACZynEV620J6l6fuFK7qiks6Mb4LxoQps4lc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=U%2B6Ls31roH%2FFxh9O31K7ilrJkw6VzeyPAcZBboj5TE4%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> * Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:51
> * To: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, Marc Johlic <
> marc.johlic@gmail.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> * Subject: *RE: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> For content implemented using technologies that support specifying the
> purpose of specific types of form input fields, the purpose of each such
> field of a supported type can be programmatically determined.
>
>
>
> *From:*Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <akirkpat@adobe.com>]
>
> * Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2018 12:29 PM
> * To:* Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> * Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> Thanks Marc.
>
>
>
> Here’s a version with further edits:
>
> In content implemented using technologies with support for identifying the
> expected meaning for form input data, the meaning can be programmatically
> determined for each user interface component that accepts user input
> corresponding to the user; inputs matching a meaning provided in the HTML
> 5.2 Autofill field names
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.w3.org-252FTR-252Fhtml52-252Fsec-2Dforms.html-2523autofill-2Dfield-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cjjwhite-2540ets.org-257C99e76206120a43d0157708d559e214d4-257C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65-257C0-257C0-257C636513749899118798-26sdata-3DYIsK5eWlo1OU-252BXq-252BdOXr245xRPZEfIvd5o6LCBeCjL0-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DjIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg%26s%3DuFjRO94bHtuTYc3ZqqNn259qtZiCSzfWRAxSY7Y_FBg%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=%2F%2B9U66iP8cNsQjZbv39Jq7%2F9d1elGzB5demYSoQGT%2FQ%3D&reserved=0>must
> expose that meaning except if the technology being used does not support a
> corresponding autofill meaning.
>
>
>
> What do people think?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftwitter.com-252Fawkawk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257Ce6416acb90d34228707808d559e5143a-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513762788513280-26sdata-3DK2Pxk9EKsIqq42wTAblO1HC6NdU-252BKZZKiLCqWaUHMno-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DjIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg%26s%3DapUOTb1RjezIb461EUkfLLg-s4YZIpkTFmoJF-kbKg4%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=nfDIiMiaOscm3g7WlEkvkr%2BRTwcdsZLmbg79bdkLd1k%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From: *Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>
> * Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:03
> * To: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> * Subject: *Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4?
>
>
>
> I like the idea / premise and would +1 this replacing the wording in 1.3.4
> - and even keeping it at AA with this idea / premise / wording.
>
>
>
> I know we're out of time, but I would like to simplify the wording of the
> SC if possible.  Sorry - no ideas right off the top of my head..  I'll try
> to come up with suggestions.  It really just boils down to being as simple
> as Leonie asked..  if your tech supports autofill, use it - but I know the
> SC language needs to cover all of the bases.  (It just took me a few read
> throughs to "get it").
>
>
>
> Even if the wording stays as is, I would +1 this replacing current 1.3.4
> wording - and leaving in as AA.
>
>
>
> -Marc Johlic
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
> This SC seems to be saying that when using HTML input fields to collect
>    user information, the input element needs to have the autocomplete
>    attribute set with a value corresponding to the expected information
>    (based on the tokens defined in HTML5.2). Is this right?
>
> That is right. Of course there isn’t a value needed for every input, just
> the ones with the meaning that matches the list.
>
> The SC also applies to other technologies that support autofill. If a
> technology other than HTML supports autofill and has some of the values
> that HTML 5.2 supports, those values need to be supported when using that
> technology also.
>
> AWK
>
>
>
>    On 12/01/2018 14:47, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>    > OK, so here’s a new attempt at language for 1.3.4.
>    >
>    > This language is below. Several concerns are addressed:
>    >
>    >   * Uses a small and already-established list of values, based on the
>    >     values in HTML5.2, but only imposes those values on other
>    >     technologies if those technologies share the same values.
>    >   * Well-established browser support for input autofill, and provides
> a
>    >     pathway for cognitive AT innovation.
>    >   * Addresses a need established by the COGA group related to
> difficulty
>    >     filling out forms as well as providing the personalization
>    >     enhancements development pathway.
>    >   * WCAG doesn’t need to provide a specific list of inputs by
>    >     referencing the HTML list, but that list is versioned with HTML so
>    >     the level of testability doesn’t change until we update the
>    >     reference in WCAG 2.2 (or silver) to either an updated HTML or
>    >     COGA/ARIA spec.
>    >   * Specifically targeted to the user, so this isn’t for EVERY input
>    >     control, just a handful in the HTML spec (~40) that relate to
> common
>    >     user information (name, address, phone, credit card).
>    >
>    > Title: Support Common Input Fields
>    >
>    > SC Text:
>    >
>    > In content implemented using technologies with support for autofilling
>    > form inputs, the meaning of each user interface component that accepts
>    > user input corresponding to the user can be programmatically
> determined;
>    > inputs matching a meaning provided in the HTML 5.2 Autofill field
> names
>
>     > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml52%2Fsec-forms.html%
> 23autofill-field&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%
> 7C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178de
> cee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513679887347881&sdata=ToUIE6G%
> 2FsKjrtn5JMEwM9hTps6iMOc6BtZwokR8IAzI%3D&reserved=0
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.w3.org-252FTR-252Fhtml52-252Fsec-2Dforms.html-2523autofill-2Dfield-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513679887347881-26sdata-3DToUIE6G-252FsKjrtn5JMEwM9hTps6iMOc6BtZwokR8IAzI-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DjIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg%26s%3DKwhRWsNCxJLmPtTZSk__WqkmNiIbl094ZPTvDGD2kkU%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=512sLu4PaWmg41nXbZJLTcEfx44OGAjT7r3zpfoS%2B%2BY%3D&reserved=0>>
> must expose
>    > that meaning except if the technology being used does not support a
>    > corresponding autofill meaning.
>    >
>    > Note:
>    >
>    > The set of meanings for inputs is based on HTML 5.2. It is not
> expected
>    > that every technology supports the same set, so content implemented
>    > using a technology that supports a subset of the HTML 5.2 autofill
>    > meanings is not required to provide support for meanings that are not
>    > supported by that technology.
>    >
>    > Note:
>    >
>    > Some technologies are expected to provide a list of meanings that is a
>    > superset of the HTML 5.2 set; authors are encouraged to implement
>    > support for additional meanings in their content in order to provide a
>    > better experience for users.
>    >
>    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2F1.3.4_autofill%
> 2Fguidelines%2Findex.html%23identify-common-purpose&
> data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79%
> 7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513679887347881&sdata=
> VHpV4ttfM7I2%2FFKZW6SCulpl8NgMOw%2BtZ2%2BRHugkCtE%3D&reserved=0
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Frawgit.com-252Fw3c-252Fwcag21-252F1.3.4-5Fautofill-252Fguidelines-252Findex.html-2523identify-2Dcommon-2Dpurpose-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513679887347881-26sdata-3DVHpV4ttfM7I2-252FFKZW6SCulpl8NgMOw-252BtZ2-252BRHugkCtE-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DjIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg%26s%3DYjp5j5hVz3iy85qva1keCGGlHeirevH2uVUoUmq3eR8%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=p%2BvOPHPIynFHQJ7enm4eXak4gG477rs8vLlaAnPCOfU%3D&reserved=0>
>    >
>    > If you like it, or don’t like it, please speak up ASAP!
>    >
>    > Thanks,
>    >
>    > AWK
>    >
>    > Andrew Kirkpatrick
>    >
>    > Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>    >
>    > Adobe
>    >
>    > akirkpat@adobe.com
>    >
>    > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%
> 7C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178de
> cee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513679887347881&sdata=LG6X%2BPhGvkisWjEcmBqgBy%
> 2FteFAEl9tq2izWdcwmbio%3D&reserved=0
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>
>     >
>
>    --
>    @LeonieWatson @tink@toot.cafe tink.uk
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftink.uk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C77857df5a72447614ae208d559de604e-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C1-257C636513733998117846-26sdata-3DYtaWXq9SN2FjUMQYnIAGmvalPT6-252FHQxYEoBJO37shP0-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3D_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc%26m%3DjIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg%26s%3D48EzoMKMcsyu9bUTUr7uNc8q_W3HfRpqpiYVquicVKA%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cfe05ec027a98467a49b608d559edfdc6%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636513801066872449&sdata=5f9jNOIFln2p3lxFteyutiSkkEMXxHTq9PLWXscj2Fw%3D&reserved=0>carpe
> diem
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
>
> John Foliot
>
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>
> Deque Systems Inc.
>
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>
>
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>
>
> --
>
> John Foliot
>
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>
> Deque Systems Inc.
>
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>
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> --
>
> John Foliot
>
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>
> Deque Systems Inc.
>
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
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-- 
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
john.foliot@deque.com

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion