Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?

I'm just riffing off of an email you sent that said

"With regard to dismissal, yes the easiest and most practical way to
satisfy this condition is to map the ESC key or another keyboard shortcut.
Theoretically, it could also be satisfied using a pointer method like a
gesture, middle-click, etc., but then you need a keyboard way anyway to
satisfy 2.1.1."

So I'm guessing the techniques for meeting this are
- use esc key
AND
- MIDDLE CLICK or context menu or some other pointer action where the
pointer doesn't move...



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David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

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On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
>
>
> Thanks for scratching your comment about moving the pointer but I’ll try
> to explain anyway.  I’m not sure I understand your issue, but having to
> move the pointer hover elsewhere means that a magnified view potentially
> has to change its view area, so then the user has to carefully try to move
> things back into view without triggering again.  This is not an easy feat
> for low vision users who probably don’t see the pointer all that well in
> the first place.  Basically, the user wants to get the magnified viewport
> how they want it without worrying about tiptoeing and zigzagging the
> pointer around to avoid author-placed land mines.  Does that answer your
> question?
>
>
>
> I’m also getting confused by your technique of dismissing with a context
> menu.  Can you go into more detail?
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:33 PM
> *To:* Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Cc:* Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com; jon.avila@levelaccess.com;
> akirkpat@adobe.com; jjwhite@ets.org; melanie.philipp@deque.com;
> acampbell@nomensa.com; Jake.Abma@ing.nl; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> Let's add the techniques for
>
> - Using the esc key to dismiss popup
>
> - Using the context menu to dismiss popup
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:31 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Scratch that, I can live with it.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
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>
>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:31 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> It's better Steve but I still think we have to address
>
> I still don't understand "without moving pointer hover" ... even if access
> the pointer context menu isn't there is a small movement of the pointer?
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> twitter.com/davidmacd
>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
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> *  Adapting the web to all users*
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>
>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>
> To clarify, I never said that the tabs weren’t focusable, just that the
> content wasn’t becoming visible on focus.  In retrospect, being technically
> astute might lead us to look at the underlying JavaScript to see if the
> code to display the additional content was occurring onfocus() or maybe
> onkeypress().  As Brooks is saying though, it really doesn’t matter whether
> we come to an agreement on that if we can agree on a simple change.
>
>
>
> I propose simply adding back in the part about obscuring other content and
> moving on, so the Dismissable condition would then read:
>
>
>
> “A mechanism is available to dismiss the additional content without moving
> pointer hover or keyboard focus, unless the additional content communicates
> an input error or does not obscure other content;”
>
>
>
> Any objections to that?
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> *From:* Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com [mailto:Brooks.Newton@
> thomsonreuters.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:04 PM
> *To:* david100@sympatico.ca; jon.avila@levelaccess.com
> *Cc:* Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>;
> akirkpat@adobe.com; jjwhite@ets.org; melanie.philipp@deque.com;
> acampbell@nomensa.com; Jake.Abma@ing.nl; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> *Subject:* RE: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> +1 to Jonathan’s and David’s perspective on this.  I agree with them.  I’m
> also right in the middle of documenting, implementing and testing this
> design pattern, so the hair splitting semantic exercise of what is change
> in focus versus what is a change in selection means less to me than the
> practical implications of observing new content display upon pressing arrow
> keys, not space or enter, as the ARIA Authoring Practices 1.1 recommends
> (automatic activation)
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#tabpanel>.
>
>
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca
> <david100@sympatico.ca>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:53 PM
> *To:* Jonathan Avila
> *Cc:* Repsher, Stephen J; Andrew Kirkpatrick; White, Jason J; Melanie
> Philipp; Alastair Campbell; Abma, J.D. (Jake); WCAG
> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> Hi Steve
>
>
>
> I have to confess... I've never made that distinction that if you move to
> an actionable control with an arrow key rather than a tab key it is not a
> focusable element.
>
>
>
> Is there anywhere official you can point me (and Jonathan) to that makes
> that distinction.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
>
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>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
> wrote:
>
> In my opinion switching between tabs with arrow keys is changing focus and
> selection.   Just as moving up and down in an ARIA combo box with pop up
> list that takes focus moves both selection and focus.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>
> I’ll try to reply to various comments throughout this thread…
>
>
>
> First, it is unclear to me from issue #650 whether or not the commenter is
> talking about true tabbed interfaces, or simply menus that respond to
> tabbing.  However, it doesn’t really matter what the UI component actually
> is but rather how it functions using a keyboard or pointer.  If stuff
> appears on focus or hover, then it applies.
>
>
>
> With regard to the applicability to tabbed interfaces (i.e.
> role=”tab”)…The answer depends on how the keyboard and pointer interactions
> are implemented.  Taking the ARIA Authoring Practices example, Andrew is
> correct in saying that the SC is not applicable because keyboard focus on
> the tab is not what makes its associated tabpanel appear.  The tablist
> receives focus and simply transfers it to the currently displayed tab, then
> the next focusable element is the tabpanel.  There are only 2 ways to make
> the “additional” tab panel content appear:
>
> 1.       Click the tab with the pointer, or
>
> 2.       Move focus into the tablist, then use the arrow keys to select a
> new tab.  This is functionally equivalent to a <select> which displays
> different content onblur or on selection.
>
> Thus, there is no real applicability for the SC in this example.  And
> furthermore, most tabs that I experience pretty much use an onclick()
> approach since it’s the easiest way to also be mobile-friendly, so there’s
> no applicability for most tabs in the wild either.
>
>
>
> So, could the SC apply to a tabbed interface?  Yes, certainly, but only if
> it truly works on just hover and/or focus, and that would be a horrible
> user experience for everyone in most tab applications.
>
>
>
> I’m happy to add some stuff to the Understanding discussing tabs to
> reflect all this.
>
>
>
> With regard to defining “additional content”… I view this as already
> defined by the SC language itself, i.e. anything that requires an element
> to be focused or hovered before it becomes visible is the additional
> content.  Referring to it as “additional” is nothing more than a
> convenience so that it is clear what is being talked about in the 3
> conditions and has no other meaning beyond that.  I think the Understanding
> already makes this clear.
>
>
>
> With regard to going back to popup, popover, or scoping to “overlay”… This
> was extremely confusing for many folks even with a clear definition, and
> that definition would need to scope it to the same content as is now, so I
> do not agree with going back down that winding road.  Moreover, scoping to
> only overlays misses the point of the Hoverable and Persistent conditions,
> i.e. those conditions are there to assist with viewing and operating the
> additional content and it’s irrelevant whether or not anything else is
> being obscured.
>
>
>
> With regard to the general notion of additional content that is not
> overlaying or obscuring anything else... I originally had this in the
> Dismissable bullet, but the working group discussed it and decided to
> remove it.  That is, it originally read: “..., unless the additional
> content communicates an input error or does not obscure any other
> content.”  I’m fine with adding that back in if the group feels it is
> important, but that seems irrelevant to issue #650.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <akirkpat@adobe.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 9:13 AM
> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; White, Jason J <
> jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>; Alastair Campbell <
> acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> Would be good to hear from Steve about David’s last question (“without
> moving the pointer”)…
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
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>
> *From: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> *Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:09
> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc: *Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>, Alastair Campbell <
> acampbell@nomensa.com>, "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>, WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
> *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:06
>
>
>
> I agree with going back to using popup, or something similar and then
> defining it.
>
>
>
> For me, "overlay" makes me think of a light box, dialogue box etc., which
> is not generally a hover based popup... but could live with it if it's
> defined or clear in another way the the SC is not talking about those
> things.
>
>
>
> I also hope we address the first bullet regarding closing the popup
> "without moving the pointer". The pointer can't do anything without moving,
> can it?
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
>
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>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:53 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> I think we should explore this option to see whether it covers the desired
> cases – and only them.
>
>
>
> *From:* Melanie Philipp [mailto:melanie.philipp@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 8:35 AM
> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <
> Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <
> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> Did you explore the word "overlay"? As in:
>
>
>
> "When pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers additional content* that
> overlays other content*, the following are true:"
>
>
>
> Perhaps no new definition would be required with this approach.
>
>
> Melanie Philipp, CPACC, WAS
> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
> 540-848-5220 <(540)%20848-5220>
> www.deque.com
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>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:59 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 5:00 AM
>
>
>
> I agree it would help to have something like ‘pop-over’ as the target of
> the SC. I’m fairly sure we did at one stage, Steve (CCed) might be able to
> remember why we dropped that?
>
> *[Jason] The term was used (with disagreement about whether it should be
> “popup” or “popover”), but I don’t recall there being a definition. It was
> relatively uncontroversial, as I recall, that these terms did not have a
> generally accepted meaning that was clear or precise enough to meet our
> testability requirements.*
>
>
>
>
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