Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?

Hi Steve

I have to confess... I've never made that distinction that if you move to
an actionable control with an arrow key rather than a tab key it is not a
focusable element.

Is there anywhere official you can point me (and Jonathan) to that makes
that distinction.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



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On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
wrote:

> In my opinion switching between tabs with arrow keys is changing focus and
> selection.   Just as moving up and down in an ARIA combo box with pop up
> list that takes focus moves both selection and focus.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>
> I’ll try to reply to various comments throughout this thread…
>
>
>
> First, it is unclear to me from issue #650 whether or not the commenter is
> talking about true tabbed interfaces, or simply menus that respond to
> tabbing.  However, it doesn’t really matter what the UI component actually
> is but rather how it functions using a keyboard or pointer.  If stuff
> appears on focus or hover, then it applies.
>
>
>
> With regard to the applicability to tabbed interfaces (i.e.
> role=”tab”)…The answer depends on how the keyboard and pointer interactions
> are implemented.  Taking the ARIA Authoring Practices example, Andrew is
> correct in saying that the SC is not applicable because keyboard focus on
> the tab is not what makes its associated tabpanel appear.  The tablist
> receives focus and simply transfers it to the currently displayed tab, then
> the next focusable element is the tabpanel.  There are only 2 ways to make
> the “additional” tab panel content appear:
>
> 1.       Click the tab with the pointer, or
>
> 2.       Move focus into the tablist, then use the arrow keys to select a
> new tab.  This is functionally equivalent to a <select> which displays
> different content onblur or on selection.
>
> Thus, there is no real applicability for the SC in this example.  And
> furthermore, most tabs that I experience pretty much use an onclick()
> approach since it’s the easiest way to also be mobile-friendly, so there’s
> no applicability for most tabs in the wild either.
>
>
>
> So, could the SC apply to a tabbed interface?  Yes, certainly, but only if
> it truly works on just hover and/or focus, and that would be a horrible
> user experience for everyone in most tab applications.
>
>
>
> I’m happy to add some stuff to the Understanding discussing tabs to
> reflect all this.
>
>
>
> With regard to defining “additional content”… I view this as already
> defined by the SC language itself, i.e. anything that requires an element
> to be focused or hovered before it becomes visible is the additional
> content.  Referring to it as “additional” is nothing more than a
> convenience so that it is clear what is being talked about in the 3
> conditions and has no other meaning beyond that.  I think the Understanding
> already makes this clear.
>
>
>
> With regard to going back to popup, popover, or scoping to “overlay”… This
> was extremely confusing for many folks even with a clear definition, and
> that definition would need to scope it to the same content as is now, so I
> do not agree with going back down that winding road.  Moreover, scoping to
> only overlays misses the point of the Hoverable and Persistent conditions,
> i.e. those conditions are there to assist with viewing and operating the
> additional content and it’s irrelevant whether or not anything else is
> being obscured.
>
>
>
> With regard to the general notion of additional content that is not
> overlaying or obscuring anything else... I originally had this in the
> Dismissable bullet, but the working group discussed it and decided to
> remove it.  That is, it originally read: “..., unless the additional
> content communicates an input error or does not obscure any other
> content.”  I’m fine with adding that back in if the group feels it is
> important, but that seems irrelevant to issue #650.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <akirkpat@adobe.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2018 9:13 AM
> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>; White, Jason J <
> jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>; Alastair Campbell <
> acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> Would be good to hear from Steve about David’s last question (“without
> moving the pointer”)…
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe
>
>
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>
>
>
> *From: *David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> *Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:09
> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc: *Melanie Philipp <melanie.philipp@deque.com>, Alastair Campbell <
> acampbell@nomensa.com>, "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>, WCAG <
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
> *Resent-From: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 09:06
>
>
>
> I agree with going back to using popup, or something similar and then
> defining it.
>
>
>
> For me, "overlay" makes me think of a light box, dialogue box etc., which
> is not generally a hover based popup... but could live with it if it's
> defined or clear in another way the the SC is not talking about those
> things.
>
>
>
> I also hope we address the first bullet regarding closing the popup
> "without moving the pointer". The pointer can't do anything without moving,
> can it?
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
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> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:53 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> I think we should explore this option to see whether it covers the desired
> cases – and only them.
>
>
>
> *From:* Melanie Philipp [mailto:melanie.philipp@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 8:35 AM
> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Abma, J.D. (Jake) <
> Jake.Abma@ing.nl>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <
> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed
> interfaces?
>
>
>
> Did you explore the word "overlay"? As in:
>
>
>
> "When pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers additional content* that
> overlays other content*, the following are true:"
>
>
>
> Perhaps no new definition would be required with this approach.
>
>
> Melanie Philipp, CPACC, WAS
> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
> 540-848-5220 <(540)%20848-5220>
> www.deque.com
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>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 7:59 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alastair Campbell [mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 9, 2018 5:00 AM
>
>
>
> I agree it would help to have something like ‘pop-over’ as the target of
> the SC. I’m fairly sure we did at one stage, Steve (CCed) might be able to
> remember why we dropped that?
>
> *[Jason] The term was used (with disagreement about whether it should be
> “popup” or “popover”), but I don’t recall there being a definition. It was
> relatively uncontroversial, as I recall, that these terms did not have a
> generally accepted meaning that was clear or precise enough to meet our
> testability requirements.*
>
>
>
>
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