Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces? from Joshue O Connor on 2018-01-07 (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org from January to March 2018)

From: Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2018 20:05:09 +0000
To: "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>
Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-Id: <20180107200520.7A47C5C0DED@relay.mailchannels.net>
Well don't you learn something new every day. 
Thanks Jake!
Josh 
InterAccess - Accessible UX
-------- Original message --------From: "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl> Date: 07/01/2018  19:24  (GMT+00:00) To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk> Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces? 




Finger tabs as I know them, what's in a name... , are the vertical form of tabs, see attachment as an example.


Often these change on focus as with the site I took the screenshot from





About the definition for “additional content”, as can be read in my other comments, it's not present and what's present
 doesn't fit with the SC.





The help text on focus for input seems weird to 'must be dismissable' with the escape key as an example. This is more of a side effect than a need for why this SC is present at all. Let alone that on a mobile you don't have the escape key for dismissing.





And there may be more ways out there of showing content on focus (or hover) while it's not obstructing the functionality or understanding of content (being
 in-page) while dismissing is just not an option as it is for popovers.







From: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>

Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:55 PM

To: Abma, J.D. (Jake); David MacDonald; Patrick H. Lauke

Cc: WCAG

Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?
 



What’s a “finger tab”? I agree re input help text, but that is content that should meet this SC, right? Whether aria is used or not has no bearing on the SC – ARIA provides a technique to satisfy this SC, but isn’t  directly a factor.
 
For a set of tabs that uses the tab key to change the tab, that might be a problem, but does seem to hinge on the “additional content” definition.
 


Thanks,


AWK


 


Andrew Kirkpatrick


Group Product Manager, Accessibility


Adobe 


 


akirkpat@adobe.com


http://twitter.com/awkawk
 

From: 
"Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>

Date: Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 13:31

To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, Patrick Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>

Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>

Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?


 


@andrew, not with finger tabs, not with input help text appearing on focus (instead of a info popup) and not with tabs implemented WITHOUT ARIA and/or still using the Tab key for navigation in contrast to arrow keys.
 





From: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>

Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:06 PM

To: Abma, J.D. (Jake); David MacDonald; Patrick H. Lauke

Cc: WCAG

Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?


 




I still think that since the content change occurs on selection and not on focus, this SC doesn’t come into play.
 
Selection is different from focus: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-selected
 


Thanks,


AWK


 


Andrew Kirkpatrick


Group Product Manager, Accessibility


Adobe 


 


akirkpat@adobe.com


http://twitter.com/awkawk
 

From: 
"Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.nl>

Date: Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 08:55

To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, Patrick Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>

Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>

Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?

Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>

Resent-Date: Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 08:52


 


When going back to the roots, isn't this SC not totally based on content "blocking" other content by "floating" over that other content, causing problems understanding the information/relationship AND, especially
 when zoomed in, the 'floating' content disappearing when moving the mouse trying to read the floating content which is not in view?


 


By "floating" I mean all variations of tooltips, pop-overs, pop-outs, pop-ups, floating menu's etc. often caused by absolute positioned / z-index CSS.


 


If so, is this SC also necessary when this type of exposing information is not used?


We can as easily NOT use a pop-over / floating but show the information 'in-page' (pushing back the content a bit to reveal the "additional content"). We see this for instance when the focus is on an input field
 and showing help text beneath it. The help text, per field, is only visible on-focus.


 


I guess not, and, as this is also the case for tabs / finger tabs (not floating over other content) we could search for a way to have this SC only apply to the "floating part"...


 

 






From: Abma, J.D. (Jake)

Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 2:26 PM

To: David MacDonald; Patrick H. Lauke

Cc: WCAG

Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?


 




Agree with David about drawing a bright line and to clearly define the distinction.


The "Dismissable" sentence is not achievable for ARIA tabs and also for the similar finger tabs concept.


 


First thing I've tried was searching for the definition of "additional content" and couldn't find it.


It puts the term in a grey area which makes assumptions unfounded.


 


I see there's a definition for "supplemental content" which is "additional content that illustrates or clarifies the primary content". So if I put clarifying content for
 the primary content in a Tab structure with- or even without using ARIA, add it to a custom tooltip or using "finger tabs" which is very similar to ARIA tabs, that's a design choice based on the amount of information and aesthetics. As supplemental content
 is a subset of additional content you can't state:


 


"A tab set switches content, it doesn’t show additional content."


 


We "hide" supplemental/additional content in finger tabs to saved screen space and only load it when hovering or focus is on a finger tab. So it's not there on page load
 and you can't "dismiss" the finger tab content panel. The loading is also a developer choice, not a predetermined given.


 

 






From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>

Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 12:07 PM

To: Patrick H. Lauke

Cc: WCAG

Subject: Re: Issue 650 Does the Hover or focus SC apply to tabbed interfaces?


 





> That line could possibly be fixed with “...without *having to* move the pointer or keyboard focus” or words to
 that effect.


 


 


Maybe I'm missing something... I don't know how that would fix it. The only way that I can see being able to close a popup without "moving the pointer" or "without having
 to move the pointer" is by pressing the "esc" key, in which case it seems we are saying that it can be dismissed without use of the pointer?? 












Cheers,

David MacDonald
 
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel:  613.235.4902
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twitter.com/davidmacd
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www.Can-Adapt.com
  
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            Including those with disabilities


 


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On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote:



That line could possibly be fixed with “...without *having to* move the pointer or keyboard focus” or words to that effect.


 


P




On 7 Jan 2018, at 00:48, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:




[...]


I do think the line
"dismiss the additional content without moving pointer hover or keyboard focus" is weird, because the user has to move the pointer to hit the "x" ... how would a mouse
 user dismiss a popup without moving the mouse? 



 





 



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Received on Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:06:01 UTC