Re: Mikes request that we identify an upper limit on the number of digits

        

        
            I also just want to add that I don't have sources for setting any exact upper limit- 5 . And  I would never want to set any uper limit. We do know that the number of items a person can hold onto at the same time (working memory)becomes progressively impaired with dementia until it hits one or two, I can try and find sources for that if you want. This is part of required skill for copying. I can also give some sources in sequence, and we have also experience were we see people in the task force  struggling at about the five item mark, and people with dementia etc having trouble earlier. We know some sub groups of dyslexia do not have a functioning visual memory (also needed for coping) and can give you sources for that as well. Tiredness and stress are known to make many of these things worse.  All the bestLisa SeemanLinkedIn, Twitter---- On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 22:07:24 +0200  lisa.seeman<lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote ----Hi Michael, I have already gone to bed but the reach module is fully sourced. All the bestLisa SeemanLinkedIn, Twitter---- On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 21:10:56 +0200  Michael Gower<michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> wrote ----You just pointed me to a single summary phrase under Challenges: "Copying information correctly." With no other qualifiers, no citations, etc., it is not information we can build an SC upon.It is also doesn't support in a meaningful way your assertion that "five digits is too high for accessibility."Regarding the Dyscalculia information you referred me to, it states:> mistakes commonly made when manipulating numbers; ... Difficulty with numbers, specifically in cases of addition, subtraction, omission, reversal, and transposition. That doesn't address copying, it covers mathematical manipulation.You are still not addressing/answering my basic question. Do you have ANY data to support and quantify your statement that copying is a problem, and if so, what does the research show? Where are the drop offs, what has been found to improve a user's ability? Where is "5 digits" coming from?Michael GowerIBM AccessibilityResearch1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3gowerm@ca.ibm.comvoice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034From:        "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>To:        Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>Cc:        "W3c-Wai-Gl-Request@W3. Org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>Date:        2017-11-28 10:38 AMSubject:        Re: Mikes request that we identify an upper limit on the number of   digitshi miketry a searching on "copying" you will see issues such as "copying information correctly." for dementia and again with dyscalcilia.you can also do a search on memories and memory - that will also take you to some relevant info.All the bestLisa SeemanLinkedIn, Twitter---- On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:51:51 +0200 Michael Gower<michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>wrote ---- I did a search for the word "copy" and the fragment "transcri" (to catch transcribe and transcription).The only relevant references in your 2015 paper cover issues to with copying under time constraints. On copying alone, the paper says:"Then the user must enter the numbers on the computer screen into the card reader. This shouldn't be too difficult because it requires only copying the numbers. "The only reference in your second citation is:"may have to look at or listen to text several times to copy or type it into a form field; "Am I missing something?Michael GowerIBM AccessibilityResearch1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3gowerm@ca.ibm.comvoice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034From:        "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>To:        Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>Cc:        "W3c-Wai-Gl-Request@W3. Org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>Date:        2017-11-28 08:53 AMSubject:        Re: Mikes request that we identify an upper limit on the number of   digitsHi MikeThe issue with coping discussed in https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/in different user groups.  We have also discussed it in  the issue paper on https://w3c.github.io/coga/issue-papers/privacy-security.html. In addition to this we have the comments from members in the task force who often struggle with copying. My experience of disabilities such as dementia is that trouble will start at 2 or 3 digits, and hence any useful number will bar people  who can still use sites like youtube or netflixs. So researching this proposal doesn't really appeal to me unless there is a strong consensus to go here. If having a limit is needed to get this at this SC though, they it is a compromise position that we may have to do but  will exclude some people from using the site at all. We may have to do that, but I would much rather not.All the bestLisa SeemanLinkedIn, Twitter---- On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 16:52:59 +0200 Michael Gower<michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>wrote ---- > For example a code with five digits is both too high  for accessibility One of the issues IBM opened against this SC is that to date you have supplied no data to support this statement, or to support the notion that transcription represents an impediment significant enough that an SC is warranted to entirely prevent its use to satisfy authentication. As mentioned in Issue #442 the only study cited so far was a study that showed that every participant was able to transfer 5 digits. So why keep repeating that 5 is too high?I identified the concern to you last November and the concern about prohibiting copying was flagged and discussed back in April. Issue 442 has been open since October 8 with no response. This concern is not coming out of the blue, nor am I the only person to voice it.Other considerations include identifying thresholds and relying on assistive technologies to augment experience to satisfy individual users needs. As an example, look at the thresholds for Contrast (Minimum). The SC demands a certain level of contrast for content. That is not going to satisfy the needs of all users, but based on a bunch of analysis and data, a threshold was established, with the assumption that a user who requires more contrast is going to call on an AT to augment.My expectation would be that based on data, we would be looking at something similar for guidance on allowable transcription. If we don't have that data, then we are basing this SC on anecdotal evidence -- and as others have identified, it's an SC with far-reaching ramifications.The new Animation from Interaction SC, designed to address vestibular disorders, had its timing parameters removed and its designation as a double AA moved to a triple A category because there was insufficient data to establish enforceable thresholds.Michael GowerIBM AccessibilityResearch1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3gowerm@ca.ibm.comvoice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034From:        "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>To:        "W3c-Wai-Gl-Request@W3. Org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>Date:        2017-11-28 12:45 AMSubject:        Mikes request that we identify an upper limit on the number of  digitsHi FolksMike had requested empirical evidence for what is the maximum number of digits that can be reliable copied form a device for multi factor authentication.I am looking into it, but I actually think we should not enforce a  limit in the number of digits. Enforcing a limit on the number of digits in a security code will definitely jeopardize security. For example a code with five digits is both too high  for accessibility and lower then most secure applications would require.  It is much better to give the user an option of sending the code to the computer via Bluetooth/ token or even QR code. Please let me know if we want to go this rout. If not it is a lot of research for nothing. in the mean time Neil found some more research on sequencing problems that is useful in case we decide we would want to go in Mike's direction.All the bestLisa SeemanLinkedIn, Twitter