Re: Do icons fall under - 1.3.3 question for shapes/icons alone that are used everywhere now but were not back in 2008

I think that what Kurt is pointing out more is that there is more of a gap for cognitive users.  Of course, there is the possibility of a tool repurposing the alt for visual display, but with the way that WCAG handles accessibility support and the SC’s not specifically calling out display of text alongside (or instead of) images it isn’t often tested for by authors.

I expect that the CPGA TF work will call this out more.  Even with that, I don’t think that there is a 1.3.3 issue unless there are instructions that rely on sensory characteristics so I think that we should be reviewing F26 and keeping this discussion in mind when reviewing the COGA work.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility and Standards
Adobe

akirkpat@adobe.com
http://twitter.com/awkawk


From: CAE-Vanderhe <gregg@raisingthefloor.org<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org>>
Date: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 13:21
To: Kurt Mattes <kurt.mattes@deque.com<mailto:kurt.mattes@deque.com>>
Cc: "alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>" <alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>>, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>, Katie GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>>, Sailesh Panchang <sailesh.panchang@deque.com<mailto:sailesh.panchang@deque.com>>, Jason J White <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>
Subject: Re: Do icons fall under - 1.3.3 question for shapes/icons alone that are used everywhere now but were not back in 2008
Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 13:22

that should be covered by 1.1.1


  *   Icons are images
  *   and the ALT text for them should be their FUNCTION (not what they look like)
  *   Pointing to them (or moving focus to them) should show the meaning
  *   A plug in AT (or other AT) can expose the label without having to focus on them.

personally - don’t like icons without text.    But since the information is available and can be exposed all the time with AT — we did not see it as a barrier.



gregg

On Apr 20, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Kurt Mattes <kurt.mattes@deque.com<mailto:kurt.mattes@deque.com>> wrote:

@Andrew - it is a conversation we'll need to have over drinks one day. For now, suffice it to say that there is an assumption about icons with no text being self-explanatory, they convey all that is necessary for understanding and using the content. I believe that is not always the case. My first encounter with a hamburger menu left me dumbfounded.

Appreciate the F26 explanation.

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Gregg Vanderheiden RTF <gregg@raisingthefloor.org<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org>> wrote:
Sorry

You are correct.  I was thinking of 1.3.1

1.3.3. has to do with instructions only.     if there are no instructions - then 1.3.3 is met

Andrew did a great job of distinguishing the roles of different SC



gregg

On Apr 20, 2016, at 7:22 AM, ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>> wrote:

Gregg,

The wording in 1.3.3 is not clear and it implies images of items that can be perceived as icons.

I want to understand this to be better able to teach it to developers.

I think 1.3.3 is an important concept and I find many of the automated tools bypass this guideline.
Perhaps due to 1.1.1, we have overlooked what 1.3.3 is all about.

I don’t get only graphic characters from the wording of F26:
“The objective of this technique is to show how using a graphical symbol to convey information can make content difficult to comprehend. A graphical symbol may be an image, an image of text or a pictorial or decorative character symbol (glyph) which imparts information nonverbally.”

This is not just for screen reader users, but for all.

Regards,

Alan

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From: Gregg Vanderheiden<mailto:gregg@raisingthefloor.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:02 AM
To: alands289<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>
Cc: Jonathan Avila<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>; GLWAI Guidelines WG org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; John Foliot<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>; Katie Haritos-Shea<mailto:ryladog@gmail.com>; Sailesh Panchang<mailto:sailesh.panchang@deque.com>; Jason J White<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>
Subject: Re: Do icons fall under - 1.3.3 question for shapes/icons alone that are used everywhere now but were not back in 2008

Hi Alan,

If something is covered by one SC  - we don’t usually cover it by another.

What you describe would be a failure of 1.1.1    which is the first and perhaps best known SC as well.

So there is no need to mention that it 1.3.3 also will fail.      In creating WCAG we looked carefully at all the SC on a level - and designed them to work together.     1.3.3. was crafted to be sure that using graphic characters did not slip through because it was not an image and was, by definition, a character in a font.     1.1.1 covers images that are images.

Make sense now?

gregg

On Apr 20, 2016, at 5:09 AM, ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>> wrote:

I’m surprised I’ve not heard back from anyone on this other than Patrick ad Jon.

Has this ever been considered from a cognitive user’s view point and needs?

Regards,

Alan

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From: ALAN SMITH<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 7:06 PM
To: Jonathan Avila<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Correction: 1.3.3 question for shapes/icons alone that are used everywhere now but were not back in 2008

Does anyone else have any wisdom on this?
The “F26: Failure of Success Criterion 1.3.3 due to using a graphical symbol alone to convey information”
“The objective of this technique is to show how using a graphical symbol to convey information can make content difficult to comprehend. A graphical symbol may be an image, an image of text or a pictorial or decorative character symbol (glyph) which imparts information nonverbally. Examples of graphical symbols include an image of a red circle with a line through it, a "smiley" face, or a glyph which represents a check mark, arrow, or other symbol but is not the character with that meaning. Assistive technology users may have difficulty determining the meaning of the graphical symbol. If a graphical symbol is used to convey information, provide an alternative using features of the technology or use a different mechanism that can be marked with an alternative to represent the graphical symbol. For example, an image with a text alternative can be used instead of the glyph.”

This says to me “icons”.

This may be a “eureka” moment if icons need more information in order to pass 1.3.3.
Thank you.
Alan


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From: Jonathan Avila<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 5:32 PM
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Correction: 1.3.3 question for shapes/icons alone that are used everywhere now but were not back in 2008

It's my reading of 1.3.3 that it only applies to instructions that reference other content by shape.  That is it would fail if you said click the square symbol.

Jon

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 4, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk<mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 04/04/2016 20:51, ALAN SMITH wrote:
>> My bad, 1.3.3 as it deals with shapes.
>
> Doing a formal reading of the wording of 1.3.3, I'd say your examples would also likely fail 1.3.3 (though I'll admit to not having bothered in the past to mark those situations as failures of 1.3.3 as they're usually already covered by 1.1.1, 3.3.2 and 4.1.2), and instead reserve 1.3.3 for more general cases of shapes (not relating to controls or icons) used to convey meaning (e.g. a series of <div>s with lots of CSS styling to make up a sort of graph/visualisation).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk<http://www.splintered.co.uk/> | https://github.com/patrickhlauke

> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com<http://redux.deviantart.com/>
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>




--
Regards,
Kurt Mattes
Accessibility Program Manager
Deque Systems
610-368-1539