Re: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header

Hi Allen

Assistive technology is overcoming obstacles all the time. That's why WCAG
allows text zooming by the browser, without requiring <em> elements.

I get a sense that was very trivial for screen readers to look at adjacent
cell headers to determine whether to announce them or not, and therefore
overcome the need for Scope in most situations,

However, I honour group consensus. I think the important take away is that
for whatever reason, there is some loyalty to the Scope even though it
doesn't change the spoken results in any browser/AT combination, except for
one very rare use case, which we could document.

I'll drop this for the time being. If someone else wants to bring it up
again I would support dropping it. My tests are here along with the rare
use case of a row header where it is necessary.
http://davidmacd.com/blog/csun/files/test-scope-tables.html

Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

www.Can-Adapt.com



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On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Hoffman, Allen <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>
wrote:

>  My problem with the rationale on this is:
>
> Just because screen readers may be doing “magic” analysis to extract
> information and relationships doesn’t mean such mark up should not be
> provided.  The idea is to ensure such information and relationships are
> programmatically determinable, not based on magic analysis, but on intended
> coding.  Frankly developing SR coding to do magic analysis is not trivial
> and I’d much prefer SR folks be working on things more specific than
> interpreting stuff others don’t code well enough.  So, in a nutshell, a SR
> not working from correctly coded information ,or the other way around
> should not be used as a yardstick for sufficient techniques or failures.  I
> do believe tracking real world outcomes of such coding is helpful for AT
> developers most certainly, and for those who really want to code for a
> specific environment, but from a systemic approach coders need to code to
> the standards as best as they can.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Allen Hoffman*
>
> Deputy Executive Director
>
> The Office of Accessible Systems & Technology
>
> Department of Homeland Security
>
> 202-447-0503 (voice)
>
> allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov
>
>
>
> DHS Accessibility Helpdesk
>
> 202-447-0440 (voice)
>
> 202-447-0582 (fax)
>
> 202-447-5857 (TTY)
>
> accessibility@dhs.gov
>
>
>
> *This communication, along with any attachments, is covered by federal and
> state law governing electronic communications and may contain sensitive and
> legally privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
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> you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to the
> sender and delete this message.  Thank you.*
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 8:58 AM
> *To:* Eric Eggert
> *Cc:* Jonathan Avila; Hoffman, Allen; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
>
>
> my tests are here
> http://davidmacd.com/blog/csun/files/test-scope-tables.html
>
> results table at the bottom of the page
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:33 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> HI Eric
>
>
>
> I hope you don't mind me pursuing this a little more thoroughly. Could you
> provide a link to the tests they conducted, the tables they used and a list
> of AT that was used? I'm having trouble reconciling their findings with
> mine.
>
>
>
> I think it's really important to get this right. To require a million
> developers to add 50 million instances of scope to web sites all over the
> world is a lot to ask, and I think it behoves us to make sure we have our
> testing right.
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org> wrote:
>
>  On 1 Jul 2015, at 23:55, David MacDonald wrote:
>
> Tests I've done in recent years didn't come up with any advantage to adding
> scope row or scope of column... Has anybody found any design situations
> when recent versions of JAWS or NVDA have any trouble when the scope on the
> row or column header.
>
> In the old days it was necessary because moving from the second row up to
> the first column header row would cause the screen reader to read every
> <th> to the left of the cell....
>
> Hi David,
>
> We had people in EO WG using the tables with current Jaws and NVDA and
> they
> reported an increase in accessibility when using scope. Especially the
> problem you describe, reading multiple <th> was an issue.
>
> We agreed to use scope and recommend people to use scope on most tables to
> avoid ambiguity. The tutorials need convey clear actionable accessibility
> instructions that are easy to follow. If people need to think a lot about
> how to approach something, they’ll likely do what is less effort and/or
> complexity.
>
> Best,
> Eric
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel: 613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>    - Adapting the web to all users*
>    - Including those with disabilities*
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Avila jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
> wrote:
>
> From the HTML5 Spec
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-th-element
>
> The row keyword, which maps to the row state
>
> The row state means the header cell applies to some of the subsequent
> cells in the same row(s).
>
> From HTML 4.01 Tables Section
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html
>
> row: The current cell provides header information for the rest of the row
> that contains it (see also the section on table directionality).
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> SSB BART Group
>
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> Phone 703.637.8957
>
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hoffman, Allen [mailto:allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:19 AM
> To: Jonathan Avila; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
> Is the HTML specification for scope clear on the applicability of =row
> only pointing right? Is it differently scoped in HTML4 vs. 5? Can you
> point to it? Interesting stuff for sure.
>
> Allen Hoffman
>
> Deputy Executive Director
>
> The Office of Accessible Systems & Technology Department of Homeland
> Security
>
> 202-447-0503 (voice)
>
> allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov
>
> DHS Accessibility Helpdesk
>
> 202-447-0440 (voice)
>
> 202-447-0582 (fax)
>
> 202-447-5857 (TTY)
>
> accessibility@dhs.gov
>
> This communication, along with any attachments, is covered by federal and
> state law governing electronic communications and may contain sensitive and
> legally privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution, use or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If
> you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to the
> sender and delete this message. Thank you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:13 AM
>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
> There are just some situations where no cell acts as a row header. In
> these situations there is no header cell and thus no need to indicate a row
> header. Also of important note is the fact that the scope="row" attribute
> only applies to subsequent cells. Thus, if scope = row is applied to cells
> in a header column such as the 3rd column then by definition in the HTML
> specification it does not apply cells in the columns before it. This can
> be problematic in that it forces developers to organize columns in a
> certain way or forces developers to use ids and headers.
>
> Also of confusion in the tutorial is the use of scope in examples with ids
> and headers. There is no advice on whether use of scope alongside ids and
> headers is wrong or required.
>
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/multi-level/
>
> The tutorial also incorrectly states "By using the row value for scope
> assigns the header cells in the second column to data cells on the left and
> the right of the individual header cell." When in fact it only applies to
> the right in LTR languages.
>
> I do agree, it would be great to give clear guidance on when scope of row
> is required and not and what to do with header columns that are not in the
> first column as well as issues with using scope and id/headers together.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> SSB BART Group
>
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> Phone 703.637.8957
>
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com
> spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>
> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 7:41 AM
>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> Subject: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
> Here is an appeal: please reconsider the need to single out "Tables with
> one header " as a separate category of simple tables in the tutorial [1].
> If retained, revise the situations where they are suitable and the
> corresponding examples.
>
> A simple data table must have both row and column headers marked up. There
> are perhaps very specific instances when this is not the case:
>
> e.g. 1: A calendar grid typically has a row containing days of week
> (column headers) and no row header column.
>
> e.g. 2: The first column of a two-column data table has row identifiers or
> row headers. The table may be devoid of a column header row.
>
> The smallness of a table with data itself being distinctly different in
> each column as stated in the tutorial [1] does not justify absence of row
> headers for those tables.
>
> I am still looking for answers posed in my emails below:
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0041.html
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0033.html
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/one-header/
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sailesh Panchang
>
>  --
>
> Eric Eggert
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
>
>
>
>
>