Re: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header

my tests are here
http://davidmacd.com/blog/csun/files/test-scope-tables.html
results table at the bottom of the page

Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

www.Can-Adapt.com



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On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:33 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> HI Eric
>
> I hope you don't mind me pursuing this a little more thoroughly. Could you
> provide a link to the tests they conducted, the tables they used and a list
> of AT that was used? I'm having trouble reconciling their findings with
> mine.
>
> I think it's really important to get this right. To require a million
> developers to add 50 million instances of scope to web sites all over the
> world is a lot to ask, and I think it behoves us to make sure we have our
> testing right.
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1 Jul 2015, at 23:55, David MacDonald wrote:
>>
>> Tests I've done in recent years didn't come up with any advantage to
>> adding
>> scope row or scope of column... Has anybody found any design situations
>> when recent versions of JAWS or NVDA have any trouble when the scope on
>> the
>> row or column header.
>>
>> In the old days it was necessary because moving from the second row up to
>> the first column header row would cause the screen reader to read every
>> <th> to the left of the cell....
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> We had people in EO WG using the tables with current Jaws and NVDA and
>> they
>> reported an increase in accessibility when using scope. Especially the
>> problem you describe, reading multiple <th> was an issue.
>>
>> We agreed to use scope and recommend people to use scope on most tables
>> to avoid ambiguity. The tutorials need convey clear actionable
>> accessibility instructions that are easy to follow. If people need to think
>> a lot about how to approach something, they’ll likely do what is less
>> effort and/or complexity.
>>
>> Best,
>> Eric
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> David MacDonald
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
>> Tel: 613.235.4902
>>
>> LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>
>>    - Adapting the web to all users*
>>    - Including those with disabilities*
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Avila jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> From the HTML5 Spec
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-th-element
>>
>> The row keyword, which maps to the row state
>>
>> The row state means the header cell applies to some of the subsequent
>> cells in the same row(s).
>>
>> From HTML 4.01 Tables Section
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html
>>
>> row: The current cell provides header information for the rest of the row
>> that contains it (see also the section on table directionality).
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jonathan Avila
>>
>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>
>> SSB BART Group
>>
>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>>
>> Phone 703.637.8957
>>
>> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hoffman, Allen [mailto:allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:19 AM
>> To: Jonathan Avila; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>>
>> Is the HTML specification for scope clear on the applicability of =row
>> only pointing right? Is it differently scoped in HTML4 vs. 5? Can you
>> point to it? Interesting stuff for sure.
>>
>> Allen Hoffman
>>
>> Deputy Executive Director
>>
>> The Office of Accessible Systems & Technology Department of Homeland
>> Security
>>
>> 202-447-0503 (voice)
>>
>> allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov
>>
>> DHS Accessibility Helpdesk
>>
>> 202-447-0440 (voice)
>>
>> 202-447-0582 (fax)
>>
>> 202-447-5857 (TTY)
>>
>> accessibility@dhs.gov
>>
>> This communication, along with any attachments, is covered by federal and
>> state law governing electronic communications and may contain sensitive
>> and
>> legally privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the
>> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>> distribution, use or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If
>> you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to the
>> sender and delete this message. Thank you.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com]
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:13 AM
>>
>> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>
>> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>>
>> There are just some situations where no cell acts as a row header. In
>> these situations there is no header cell and thus no need to indicate a
>> row
>> header. Also of important note is the fact that the scope="row" attribute
>> only applies to subsequent cells. Thus, if scope = row is applied to cells
>> in a header column such as the 3rd column then by definition in the HTML
>> specification it does not apply cells in the columns before it. This can
>> be problematic in that it forces developers to organize columns in a
>> certain way or forces developers to use ids and headers.
>>
>> Also of confusion in the tutorial is the use of scope in examples with ids
>> and headers. There is no advice on whether use of scope alongside ids and
>> headers is wrong or required.
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/multi-level/
>>
>> The tutorial also incorrectly states "By using the row value for scope
>> assigns the header cells in the second column to data cells on the left
>> and
>> the right of the individual header cell." When in fact it only applies to
>> the right in LTR languages.
>>
>> I do agree, it would be great to give clear guidance on when scope of row
>> is required and not and what to do with header columns that are not in the
>> first column as well as issues with using scope and id/headers together.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jonathan Avila
>>
>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>
>> SSB BART Group
>>
>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>>
>> Phone 703.637.8957
>>
>> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com
>> spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 7:41 AM
>>
>> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>
>> Subject: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>>
>> Here is an appeal: please reconsider the need to single out "Tables with
>> one header " as a separate category of simple tables in the tutorial [1].
>> If retained, revise the situations where they are suitable and the
>> corresponding examples.
>>
>> A simple data table must have both row and column headers marked up. There
>> are perhaps very specific instances when this is not the case:
>>
>> e.g. 1: A calendar grid typically has a row containing days of week
>> (column headers) and no row header column.
>>
>> e.g. 2: The first column of a two-column data table has row identifiers or
>> row headers. The table may be devoid of a column header row.
>>
>> The smallness of a table with data itself being distinctly different in
>> each column as stated in the tutorial [1] does not justify absence of row
>> headers for those tables.
>>
>> I am still looking for answers posed in my emails below:
>>
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0041.html
>>
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0033.html
>>
>> [1] http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/one-header/
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sailesh Panchang
>>
>>  --
>>
>> Eric Eggert
>> Web Accessibility Specialist
>> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
>>
>
>