Re: Discussion of alt for CSS images

It's an little insurance for IE to make sure it is considered an element
that reports to the a11y API in IE for the span...

i did some testing on a related issue here...
http://davidmacd.com/blog/is-tabindex-required-on-describedby.html

Sure, feel free to check Android... I have an Android device but until
Talkback gets more mainstream and better I'd haven't bothered.

Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

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On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Kathy Wahlbin <
kathy@interactiveaccessibility.com> wrote:

>  Hi David –
>
>
>
> What purpose does the tabindex=”-1” serve in example #2?  Is this
> necessary?
>
>
>
> Did you want me to test on Android?  I can send the results.
>
>
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 28, 2015 12:42 PM
> *To:* james.nurthen@oracle.com
> *Cc:* Mike Elledge; Andrew Kirkpatrick; WCAG; Steve Faulkner
> *Subject:* Re: Discussion of alt for CSS images
>
>
>
> Ok I think the results are ready to discuss.
>
> http://davidmacd.com/blog/css-background-images.html
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
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>
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 12:30 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>  Urrrg... ! You are so right James... that did it... we have to get Gez
> to add that...
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 11:59 AM, james.nurthen@oracle.com <
> james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>  Have you made sure to start JAWS before you start Firefox?
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2015, at 8:28 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>   Hi Mike
>
> JAWS16 read the aria-label and role="img" fine in Chrome in the example
> but IE and FF are not reading them.
>
> I've actually stopped using JAWS and FF, because it doesn't seem to go
> into Browser mode.
> I've tried all the fixes here
> http://juicystudio.com/article/handling-erratic-behaviour-at.php
>
> So if someone has their JAWS and FF running well together perhaps they can
> confirm my results.
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Mike Elledge <melledge@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  This is very interesting, David. I know you asked that others check the
> JAWS interactions, but are accessibility problems most often with JAWS and
> IE together? I had assumed (perhaps unfairly) the culprit was most often IE
> alone.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2015, at 4:53 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>    As per my action items, here are testing results for CSS background
> and CSS inline images.
>
> http://davidmacd.com/blog/css-background-images.html
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
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>
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:19 PM, James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>   not Jonathan but I think we are talking about things like
>
> #myid:before
> {
> content:url('http://www.w3.org/2008/site/images/logo-w3c-screen-lg');
> }
>
> Regards,
> James
>
>
>
> On 3/27/2015 9:01 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
>
>  Hi Jonathan
>
> I'm just throwing up some examples now... When you speak of "inline CSS
> images", are you speaking about a regular <img ...> tag which is positioned
> with CSS, or a CSS background image which has been positioned inline using
> CSS?
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Avila <
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>
>  Ø  Yes that is what I was referring to. I think this is a problem
> especially for low vision users - perhaps we have done a disservice to
> those users in this instance.....
>
> I would agree.  So to be clear, we are talking about two issues that
> impact users with low vision.
>
>
>
> 1.    Use of CSS background  images that convey meaning but have
> programmatic names via properties such as aria-label
>
> 2.    Use of inline CSS images that convey meaning and have programmatic
> names via properties such as aria-label.
>
>
>
> While these two issues may sounds the same – CSS images are supposed to be
> presentational and those background images are rightly removed in high
> contrast mode and when color are often turned off by the browser to improve
> reading contrast for users with low vision.  Inline images are considered
> non-presentational and thus are still displayed in these modes.
>
>
>
> So, IMO the CSS background issue is a more egregious issue while the
> aria-label on inline images is lesser because at least the inline image is
> visually available.
>
>
>
> Without any requirement for the user agent to display accessibility names
> for inline images it is problematic and raises accessibility support issues.
>
>
>
> Use of presentation images with only programmatic indicators seems to meet
> like a failure – but WCAG doesn’t seem to address this under 1.1.1 or
> 1.3.1.  Seems like an oversight.  For example, WCAG WG thought wisely in SC
> 1.4.1 to require a visual indicator of color in addition to a programmatic
> one – but this didn’t carry over to CSS background images as 1.1.1 and
> 1.3.1 only require programmatic indicators and not visual.  I think the
> assumption is that everyone can interpret visual information or else they
> will be using assistive technology or a browser that has some accessibility
> feature that compensates.  While that is generally true – background images
> seem like a safe thing to remove as they are only for background purpose.
> The problem is that people are using CSS background images to convey
> meaning because use of inline images have performance challenges.
>
>
>
> Just my two cents.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> Phone 703.637.8957
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>
>
>
> *From:* Katie Haritos-Shea [mailto:ryladog@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:45 PM
> *To:* David MacDonald
> *Cc:* WCAG
> *Subject:* Re: Discussion of alt for CSS images
>
>
>
> David,
>
> Yes that is what I was referring to. I think this is a problem especially
> for low vision users - perhaps we have done a disservice to those users in
> this instance.....
>
> * katie *
>
> Katie Haritos-Shea @ GMAIL
>
> On Mar 25, 2015 4:05 PM, "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi Katie
>
> Do you mean if for example if someone has images turned off, or if a file
> reference was wrong, the alt would appear in the space where the image is,
> but the aria-label won't?
>
> If so, I've heard a few discussions of that on the HTML5 group. I think
> most would say that it is not a cross browser behaviour, and that some
> browsers show the alt, and others don't show the alt, and that browsers
> could show the aria-label if they wanted to.
>
> The precedence which was set when we removed the requirement for alt on
> images if there is another means of reporting ACCNAME to the API, (which I
> was not particularly in favour of), sets a precedent that this behaviour of
> populating the empty image space with a visible alt, is not considered
> necessary for conformance by our Committee, and therefore not necessary for
> conformance here.
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <
> ryladog@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> David,
>
>
>
> The other issue was what is visually apparent to users who do not use AT
> (concerning CSS images), but are not getting the images. There is not alt
> text. Any ideas on that issue?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ** katie **
>
>
>
> *Katie Haritos-Shea*
> *Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA)*
>
>
>
> *Cell: 703-371-5545 <703-371-5545> **|* *ryladog@gmail.com*
> <ryladog@gmail.com> *|* *Oakton, VA **|* *LinkedIn Profile*
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/katieharitosshea/>*|* *Office: 703-371-5545
> <703-371-5545>*
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 25, 2015 12:34 PM
> *To:* WCAG
> *Subject:* Discussion of alt for CSS images
>
>
>
> Reading through the minutes I see there was a discussion about CSS in
> images... it appears one concern is that it is not announced to screen
> readers as an image. Although I generally discourage the use or CSS images,
> if someone has to do them I suggest using role="image"
>
> <div role="image" class="myPicture" aria-label="My dog fluffy looking
> happy">
>
> This should announce to a screen reader that it is an image and the
> alternate text...
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Marc Johlic <johlic@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> Minutes for the March 24, 2015 meeting:
> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-wai-wcag-minutes.html
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
>
> Marc Johlic | Accessibility Consultant - Web, Mobile, & Multimedia | IBM
> *Accessibility* | IBM Research
>
>
>
>
> From:        Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
> To:        WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Date:        03/20/2015 09:30 AM
> Subject:        WCAG Agenda March 24 2015
>  ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> The WCAG WG will be meeting on Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 11AM Eastern US
>
> (Length: up to 90 minutes)
>
> Bridge: +1.617.761.6200  (US) Passcode: 9224#
>
> IRC: irc.w3.org<http://irc.w3.org>  port: 6665 channel #wai-wcag
>
> Scribe list:https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
>
> Survey/Agenda
>
> 1) WCAG F2F @ TPAC Sapporo, and comment responses etc
> New survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24thMarch2015/
>
> 2) Techniques work
>
> 3) Charter update
>
> 4) Reminder about outstanding actions
>
> --
> Joshue O Connor/Andrew Kirkpatrick
> WCAG working group co-chairs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards, James
>
> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> <http://www.oracle.com>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918
> <+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com
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