Re: Should PDF documents have headers and footers on every page?

Hi Allen


Allen's comment:
>>"Page numbers and such should be in the linear order they would be
presented visually. "

Are you saying that you disagree with PDF/UA that they should be artifacts,
and that Adobe PDFMaker has it wrong when it marks them as artifacts and
that Microsoft has it wrong in its PDF engine to mark it as an artifact,
and the PAC PDF evaluation tool has it wrong to mark tagged footers as
errors and that WCAG technique PDF 14 has it wrong in example 4 to mark
them as artifacts? I think it would be an incredibly disruptive to the
current PDF accessibility ecosystem if we start requiring exposure of
headers and footers when it is established in software, standards, and best
practice advice.

Allen's comment:
>>Others favor putting them in another logical order for screen reader
output use, however, as a long long time screen reader user myself I think
this is overdoing it, e.g. I understand pages and page numbering and page
titling just fine and don’t need another reading order created “just for
me”.

David response:
Perhaps you are speaking of the SSB Bart webinar example of exposing the
page number and reordering them at the top of the page. If so, I would
agree. My concern is that a screen reader user can press Control+Shift+N to
go to page 10, and she ACTUALLY lands on page 10 (as indicated in the
footer) and not some other page because the programmatic numbering is out
of sync with the footers. So WCAG technique PDF14 is not advocating for
"special" treatment for screen reader users, it is just ensuring that
anybody, especially people with cognitive disabilities and those using
assistive technology can actually go to the page that the author specified
in the footer, and know what page they are on.



Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

www.Can-Adapt.com



*  Adapting the web to all users*
*            Including those with disabilities*

If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
<http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Hoffman, Allen <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>
wrote:

>  Page numbers and such should be in the linear order they would be
> presented visually.  Others favor putting them in another logical order for
> screen reader output use, however, as a long long time screen reader user
> myself I think this is overdoing it, e.g. I understand pages and page
> numbering and page titling just fine and don’t need another reading order
> created “just for me”.  This is a “nice to have” for some situations only,
> and if at all would in my mind only be something needed for level AAA
> conformance if anything like that exists in PDF-UA or such.  IN Braille
> transcribing circles one method of identifying print pages is to identify
> them in line with a line and page number, and labeling Braille extra pages
> such as 21, 21A, 21B, etc so blind person knows where the printed page
> break is, while still having page numbering.  This works great, and again,
> indicating that headers and footers for each page are required doesn’t make
> a lot of sense to me even from a nice to have perspective.  We wouldn’t
> require such for a long HTML page, so I can’t understand why we would think
> it was required for PDF pages either.
>
>
>
> Anyway just my two or three cents worth.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Allen Hoffman*
>
> Deputy Executive Director
>
> The Office of Accessible Systems & Technology
>
> Department of Homeland Security
>
> 202-447-0503 (voice)
>
> allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov
>
>
>
> DHS Accessibility Helpdesk
>
> 202-447-0440 (voice)
>
> 202-447-0582 (fax)
>
> 202-447-5857 (TTY)
>
> accessibility@dhs.gov
>
>
>
> *This communication, along with any attachments, is covered by federal and
> state law governing electronic communications and may contain sensitive and
> legally privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution, use or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.  If
> you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to the
> sender and delete this message.  Thank you.*
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 09, 2015 10:16 PM
> *To:* Gregg Vanderheiden; WCAG
> *Subject:* Re: Should PDF documents have headers and footers on every
> page?
>
>
>
> PS I've added the following paragraph to the analysis to clarify.
>
> "Note: The WCAG2ICT maps each PDF Document to a single unit rather than a
> number of pages.
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#keyterms_document
> It says:
>
> replacing “on a Web page” with “in a non-web document or software”
>
>
> This means that the document is the unit of measurement for WCAG
> conformance. This does not affect this discussion about making important
> information available to screen reader users.
>
> To see an example of this in WCAG2ICT see 1.4.2 in WCAG2ICT
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#visual-audio-contrast-dis-audio
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:45 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Gregg
>
> Are you concerned that this recommendation could confuse our mapping of a
> full PDF document to a web page for WCAG (WCAG2ICT)? I don't really see it
> that way. I think our WCAG2ICT is fine and stable and not affected.
>
> People will refer to "pages" of this PDF "web page" the same way that they
> might refer to any other Section  of a document, and we have existing
> techniques to do that currentlyPDF17, PDF14. We can't pretend the page
> numbers in the PDF don't exist, can we? It is visually presented and we
> need to make a way to programmatically expose it without annoying screen
> reader users with all kinds of redundancy and interruptions.
>
> Our current advice in PDF14 contradicts itself. It advises authors to make
> headers and footers (and page numbers) available to screen readers using
> the MS Word footer tags, which actually turns them into artifacts that are
> ignored by screen readers. We also say use "pagination artifacts which are
> also ignored. So we look pretty dumb I think. In the same sentence saying
> to do something to make it programmatically accessible which renders it NOT
> programmatically accessible.
>
> I'm simply suggesting we clean up the language, be more specific, and
> coordinate with the PDF/UA on this particular issue. I don't think this any
> way compromises WCAG2ICT or changes the definition of the Web Page under
> the WCAG. It exposes information in an accessible and elegant way by
> syncing pages using PDF17 Technique and marking headers and footers up as
> artifacts, and providing important information on the Title page, and
> section headings, so screen reader users know what is going on.
>
>
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden <
> gregg@raisingthefloor.org> wrote:
>
>  For documents - a full document is equated to a web page.  See WCAG2ICT
> report.
>
>
> *gregg*
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> Gregg Vanderheiden
>
> gregg@raisingthefloor.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Jun 9, 2015, at 4:12 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have compared what PDF/UA with WCAG say about headers and footers and
> have written up a small report and recommendations on how I think we should
> proceed with Headers and Footers in PDF documents.
>
> http://davidmacd.com/blog/pdf-headers-footers.html
>
> I think PDF14 requires an update quickly. I could take an action item to
> propose the rewrite.
>
>
>
>
>    Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Jonathan Avila <
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>
> David, there are some good but very specific reasons to not artifact
> header and footer information.  Otherwise running headers and footer should
> be made pagination artifacts and the Page Labels feature should be used to
> add Page numbering including section information to identify pages and
> sections to assistive technology.  The page label feature is pretty
> powerful and allows flexibility for different number schemes such as Roman
> numbers and custom label prefixes.
>
>
>
> Some instances of header and footer information that might be useful
> include classification information on classified documents, copyright
> information, form numbers, or other content that is not located elsewhere
> in the document.  In general I recommend marking that content as
> non-artifact content on the first and last page so it does not break up the
> reading order of content.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
>
>
> 703-637-8957 (o)
> Follow us: Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/#%21/ssbbartgroup> | Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/SSBBARTGroup> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah> | Blog
> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog> | Newsletter <http://eepurl.com/O5DP>
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 2:50 PM
> *To:* WCAG
> *Subject:* Should PDF documents have headers and footers on every page?
>
>
>
>
>
> We have a technique for Creating PDF headers and footers, usually inserted
> using the source program such as MS Word Headers and Footers. See PDF14.
>
>
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/PDF14.html
> This causes the screen reader to announce these Headers and footers at the
> top and bottom of every page. Sometimes the interrupt reading halfway
> through a sentence that continues on the following page. I can imagine this
> is quite annoying for screen reader users tp have to listen through a
> header and a footer between every page.
>
> Visually we just skip over it... Usually most of the information found in
> the header and footer is available on the home page of the document or some
> other prominent place.
>
> What is useful is page numbers. However, if the author syncs the page
> numbering of the PDF with the document large numbers using PDF17, it makes
> me wonder if we should advise the author to mark headers and footers as
> artifacts instead...
>
> An organization that teaches PDF, which is fairly well known, and has done
> work for Adobe teaches to turn these headers and footers into artifacts so
> they will be ignored by a screen reader.
>
> I propose we place a note on PDF14 saying something like this:
>
>  "If the page numbering has been synchronized as in PDF17 and other header
> and footer information is available in a prominent place in the document
> such as a heading or home page, then headers and footers are not necessary
> and can be marked up as artifacts..."
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>