- From: Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>
- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 14:58:59 +0200
- CC: "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <53BD3C93.1090905@hdm-stuttgart.de>
On 9/07/2014 14:53, Steve Faulkner wrote: > as a /user/ you get nothing, > points to it being usability issue If an issue disproportionately affects persons with disabilities, it is not just a usability issue. When you use magnification and a new screen pops up outside the magnified area, and you don't notice it because it's outside that area, isn't that an accessibility issue? Best regards, Christophe > > -- > > Regards > > SteveF > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> > > > On 9 July 2014 13:44, Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de > <mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>> wrote: > > > > On 9/07/2014 13:48, Hoffman, Allen wrote: >> >> Heuristically speaking: >> >> Why wouldn’t a blind user know a new window was opened? >> >> >> >> In at least three screen readers I use I don’t seem to miss this >> information. >> >> >> >> Standardsly speaking: >> >> The window handle is available for assistive technology use from >> the OS or user-agent using the OS, so I’m not clear why this is a >> content issue and not a user-agent issue, especially since how >> such windows are handled is nearly universally configurable now >> in browsers. Since the user-agent knows, the information is >> obviously available, so the assistive technology should be able >> to pick this up easily enough without specific additional content >> cues. >> >> >> >> >> What am I missing? >> > > If you argue only from the point of view of screen readers, you > miss all other users with disabilities; screen reader users > represent a minority of people with disabilities. That's why I > checked what 7 different browsers do with 'target="_blank"'; as a > sighted keyboard user, for example, you get exactly nothing. As a > magnifier user, you get nothing. > > Best regards, > > Christophe > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:*RichardWarren [mailto:richard.warren@userite.com] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 09, 2014 7:05 AM >> *To:* Aurélien Levy; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> *Subject:* Re: SC failure for opening new window without prior >> notice ? >> >> >> >> Aurelien, >> >> >> >> When a blind user activates a link that opens a new window >> without prior warning they do not know that a new window has been >> opened and thus their “browser history” renewed. Thus when they >> press the key for their screen reader to go back to the previous >> page nothing happens. Eventually they learn that we need to >> “close the current window” if we want to go back. However if they >> have followed as series of “blank-targets” this becomes a very >> hit-or-miss approach. >> >> >> >> So in practical terms target="_blank" without a warning is a >> barrier and thus a failure of WCAG level A >> >> >> >> SC 3.2.2 seems to cover this adequately. for example when it >> talks about form submission buttons being clearly marked as such, >> after all a form submission button is just a link to another page >> or state just as a target=”_blank”. The intention is clear here >> and it really is not practicable to provide examples of every >> possible situation where a change of context might be introduced. >> The over-riding essential is that the page operates in a >> predictable manner. >> >> >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:*Aurélien Levy <mailto:aurelien.levy@temesis.com> >> >> *Sent:*Wednesday, July 09, 2014 11:10 AM >> >> *To:*w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> >> *Subject:*Re: SC failure for opening new window without prior >> notice ? >> >> >> >> >> >> Based on F37 alone, we cannot definitively conclude whether >> target="_blank" without a warning is a failure. It is just not >> part of *this* failure. In the absence of failure descriptions >> that specifically mention Aurélien's case, we have only the >> success criteria to go by. Whether this case fails SC 3.2.2 >> hinges on the interpretation of "changing the setting of any user >> interface component": does activating a link constitute a change >> in a setting? A link is a UI component, but does activating it >> constitute a change in its setting? (Nothing that you can >> retrieve from the DOM, as far as I know, unlike certain >> properties of form fields.) So it seems hard to argue that >> Aurélien's example fails SC 3.2.2. >> >> However, the code fails SC3.2.5; there is even a failure for >> this: <http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140408/F22> >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140408/F22>. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Christophe >> >> I agree with that but it strange because the understanding of >> 3.2.5 state : >> >> *Change on Request:* Changes of context >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html#context-changedef> >> are initiated only by user request or a mechanism >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html#mechanismdef> >> is available to turn off such changes. (Level AAA) >> >> and we have this /Note: /Clicking on a link is an example of an >> action that is "initiated only by user request." >> >> So nothing ask about prior warning. It may be better to have >> something like : >> *Change on Request:* Changes of context >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html#context-changedef> >> are initiated only by user request *with a prior warning* or a >> mechanism >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html#mechanismdef> >> is available to turn off such changes. (Level AAA) >> or >> *Change on Request:* Changes of context >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html#context-changedef> >> are initiated only by user request or a mechanism >> <http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html#mechanismdef> >> is available to turn off*, warn the the user *of such changes. >> (Level AAA) >> >> Regarding SC 2.4.4 I ask the question because there is an example >> of using title to warn the user of opening new windows >> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140408/H33 so if >> not warning the user is not a failure of SC 2.4.4 maybe it's best >> to change this example as well >> >> Aurélien >> >> >> >> >> Richard Warren >> Technical Manager >> Website Auditing Limited (Userite) >> http://www.userite.com >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Christophe Strobbe > Akademischer Mitarbeiter > Adaptive User Interfaces Research Group > Hochschule der Medien > Nobelstraße 10 > 70569 Stuttgart > Tel. +49 711 8923 2749 <tel:%2B49%20711%208923%202749> > > "La vie est courte, hélas! et je n'ai pas encore lu tous mes livres!" (d'après Mallarmé). > > -- Christophe Strobbe Akademischer Mitarbeiter Adaptive User Interfaces Research Group Hochschule der Medien Nobelstraße 10 70569 Stuttgart Tel. +49 711 8923 2749 "La vie est courte, hélas! et je n'ai pas encore lu tous mes livres!" (d'après Mallarmé).
Received on Wednesday, 9 July 2014 12:59:19 UTC