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RE: WCAG-ISSUE-23 (DavidMacD): We should consider a new "Failure to provide role=presentation on a layout table"

From: Wilco Fiers <w.fiers@accessibility.nl>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 09:39:19 +0200
To: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <7E0E35835EAF514AAAE44748A5EAAE2E01AC67CE17C7@CPMBS-ZH01.kpneol.local>
Hi everyone,
I think Sailesh and Ramón make an excellent point. Under which success criterion would you say this is a failure? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it does not seem like any of the success criteria currently require this. It would therefore seem that adding this failure technique would broaden the scope of a success criterion beyond what it was initially designed for. And considering that WCAG 2.0 is normative and the techniques are not, I don't think that's something techniques should do.

Regards,
Wilco

________________________________________
Van: Sailesh Panchang [spanchang02@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: zondag 1 juni 2014 17:03
Aan: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group; rcorominas@technosite.es
Onderwerp: Re: WCAG-ISSUE-23 (DavidMacD): We should consider a new "Failure  to  provide role=presentation on a layout table"

I second Ramón : not having role=presentation on layout tables cannot be a failure.
Sure ARIA / HTML5 may permit  one to explicitly mark layout tables with the role but it cannot be 'required'.
In several cases, it may be redundant and create extra work for developers. Consider:
A table with a single column or row or even a table  with 2 rowslike:
<table><tr><td colspan=2">Some content</td></tr>
<tr><td>something 1</td><td>Something 2</td></tr>
</table>
Consider the content that is up there but will fail WCAG2 because this role is not set on the layout tables.
The role will certainly help AT when used on a 2x2 type layout table that is most likely interpreted as a data table.
Regards,
Sailesh

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 6/1/14, Ramón Corominas <rcorominas@technosite.es> wrote:

 Subject: Re: WCAG-ISSUE-23 (DavidMacD): We should consider a new "Failure  to  provide role=presentation on a layout table"
 To: "Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
 Date: Sunday, June 1, 2014, 8:05 AM

 Hello all,

 Although I agree that layout
 tables are evil and should die, I cannot
 see this as a WCAG failure. Simple layout
 tables (no <th>, no <caption>,
 no @summary) are usually ignored by most screen
 readers, even if they
 don't have the
 role="presentation", and behavior does not change

 whenadding it. Therefore, I cannot find a
 justification to include a
 failure that
 would force developers to add a role that has no practical

 effect on accessibility.

 Regards,
 Ramón.

 Steve
 noted:

 > Note: HTML5
 requires role=presentation on layout tables
 >
 > " If a table is
 to be used for layout it MUST be marked with the
 > attribute role="presentation"
 for a user agent to properly represent the
 > table to an assistive technology and to
 properly convey the intent of
 > the
 author to tools that wish to extract tabular data from the
 document."
 >
 >
 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
 > --
 > On 1 June 2014
 10:14, Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group

 > Issue Tracker <sysbot+tracker@w3.org
 <mailto:sysbot+tracker@w3.org>>
 wrote:
 >
 > 
    WCAG-ISSUE-23 (DavidMacD): We should consider
 a new "Failure to
 > 
    provide role=presentation on a layout
 table"
 >
 > 
    http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/23
 >
 > 
    Raised by: David MacDonald
 >     On product:
 >
 >     We
 should consider a new "Failure to provide
 role=presentation on a
 > 
    layout table." In the old days there were
 many wars about whether to
 > 
    allow layout tables. wai aria has now solved
 the issue pretty well
 > 
    and we should consider requiring it now on
 layout tables.
 >
 >

 >
 >
Received on Monday, 2 June 2014 07:40:15 UTC

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