- From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:21:19 -0500
- To: "'Steve Faulkner'" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, "'HTML Accessibility Task Force'" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "'WCAG WG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Janina Sajka'" <janina@rednote.net>
- CC: <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
- Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP1004D650492B5E2A87F6C5AFEE20@phx.gbl>
I have no desire to open an old debate. But unless I’ve missed something HTML5 A11y TF 2009 resolution and a 2013 A11Y bug response seem to be in conflict....
http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5.html
allows aria-labelledby as secondary...
A bug against HTML5 seems to have the A11Y TF taking the opposite position. Unless I’ve missed something.
<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6496> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6496
I am willing to go back to WCAG with either response ... I just want to know where the task force is ... if it is not important to the TF, I can go back with that also.
If possible I would like WCAG and HTML5 to be consistent with each other.
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902
<http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
<http://www.can-adapt.com/> www.Can-Adapt.com
Adapting the web to all users
Including those with disabilities
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From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
Sent: November 24, 2013 10:23 AM
To: Steve Faulkner
Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force; WCAG WG; public-comments-wcag20@w3.org; Gregg Vanderheiden; Janina Sajka
Subject: Re: UNS: WCAG considering amending F65 to NOT fail missing ALT text if title or aria-label is present
Hello Steve, I'm saying I disagree with the use of ARIA for plain images that are not user Interface elementsHello Steve, I'm saying I disagree with the use of ARIA for plain images that are not user Interface elements
Sailesh---
Sent from my iPad ... Please pardon "dictapos" and typos ... <grin>
On Nov 24, 2013, at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi sailesh,
what are you saying here?
that you disagree with making it OK to use aria-label etc in place of alt on an image?
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0052.html
if so then we are in aggreement
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
On 24 November 2013 03:08, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello Steve,
1. Some advance the text alternative computation logic in the ARIA specs as the chief motivation for attributes other than the alt for images, specifically the aria-labelledby and title.
I find it difficult to accept that viewpoint for reasons noted in my post:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0115.html
2. As one might expect, developers rely on automated validation checkers to validate pages as suggested by techniques G134, H88 to ensure compliance with SC 4.1.1 (A).
While only a subset of validation rules apply for this SC, most developers will not be able to or do not have bandwidth to do the fine tuning as required for this SC and will simply aim for full validation as the intent to the SC suggests that content which is 'created according to the rules defined in the formal grammar for that technology' is a good thing to ensure interoperability and robust browser/AT support.
So now if one says 'disregard validation errors for absence of alt attribute, confusion will be rife.
Usefulness of the validation checkers too will be questioned.
Above all, it is not good for the WG to say'it is fine if one introduces certain types of validation issues into the code'.
Thanks and regards,
Sailesh Panchang
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 11/23/13, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: UNS: WCAG considering amending F65 to NOT fail missing ALT text if title or aria-label is present
To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>, "HTML Accessibility Task Force" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "WCAG WG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, public-comments-wcag20@w3.org, "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, kirsten@can-adapt.com
Date: Saturday, November 23, 2013, 3:39 AM
Hi Janina,
Over time and due to experience and understanding, consensus
positions change. This document is a useful historical
reference, but does not represent the current (lack of)
consensus position on the issue.
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML
5.1
On 22 November 2013
23:54, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
wrote:
David:
As a point of information, the wider WAI community has
already expressed
a view on this. We did so back in 2009, after almost a year
of teleconferences nd
email discussions by way of presenting a coherent approach
to the
HTML-WG.
The document we produced is entitled, "WAI CG Consensus
Resolutions on
Text alternatives in HTML 5," and is available at:
http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5.html
So, while it's always good to revisit old thinking, it
should not be
forgotten that we've already covered this ground, and
that we covered it
quite extensively.
Janina
David MacDonald writes:
> On behalf of the WCAG working group, I have an action
item to solicit
> responses from the wider community regarding a proposed
amendment to WCAG
> failure technique F65 regarding missing ALT. Currently;
if an <img> element
> is missing from an ALT attribute the page fails WCAG SC
1.1.1 Level A. Some
> are proposing that we allow authors to use the
aria-label, aria-labelledby,
> and title attributes INSTEAD of ALT.
>
> So under the amended failure technique NONE of the
following would fail
> WCAG:
>
> <img src="../images/giraffe.jpg"
title="Giraffe grazing on tree branches"/>
>
> <img src="../images/giraffe.jpg"
aria-label="Giraffe grazing on tree
> branches"/>
>
> <img src="../images/giraffe.jpg"
aria-labelledby="123"/>
> <p id="123"> Giraffe grazing on tree
branches</p>
>
> As you can imagine there are strong opinions all around
on this so I
> suggested we get a sense of what other groups such as
the HTML5 A11y TF and
> PF think.
>
> Those in favour of the change provide the following
rational:
>
> --These alternatives on the img element work in
assistive technology
> --The aria spec says these attributes should get an
accessible NAME in the
> API
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#textalternativecomputation
> --They say it's easy to teach beginner programmers
to just always use an
> aria label on everything, rather than requiring a label
on form fields and
> alt on images
> --They feel as a failure F65 is very strong if fails a
page for missing ALT,
> especially if other things work, and they would like to
soften it to allow
> other things that work.
> --html 5 allows a <figure><legend>
combination instead of alt, so they feel
> WCAG will have to change F65 anyway to allow a figure
with a legend, and
> that helps open the door to this discussion
>
> Those in favour of the status quo (which fails missing
alt text) provide the
> following rational:
>
> --aria-label, labelledby and title, are not really
suitable attributes for
> img alternative text because they implies a label or
title, rather than an
> alternate text, so it is not a semantic equivalent
> --title is not well supported
> --some feel that the aria spec is not in any way
suggesting these as
> replacements to ALT.
> --aria instructs authors to use native html where
possible, and they could
> not come up with viable use cases of omitting alt text
> --there are hundreds of millions of dollars invested in
current evaluation
> tools, and methodologies, and this would represent a
major departure from
> one of the most basic accessibility convention, that is
almost as old as the
> web and is the "rock star" of accessibility
> --it could cost a lot of money to change guidance to
developers etc..., and
> muddy the waters on a very efficient current evaluation
mechanism
> --when the figure/legend is supported by AT we can
amend F65 but that is a
> different issue and the semantics of this construct are
OK for text
> alternatives, rather than the label/labelledby/title
options
> --it may cause some confidence problems to WCAG
legislation, because it
> represents a strong loosening to a fundamental Success
Criteria, an
> unnecessary change that doesn't help the cause of
accessibility, but just
> complicates things
> --ALT is better supported and the text appears when
images are turned off.
> --initial twitter feedback from the community is
strongly against changing
> this failure
>
>
> There are probably other reasons on both sides which we
hope to hear ... but
> these should start it off. Please give your opinions
and reasons.
>
> Current technique here:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/F65.html
> Proposed failure here (see test procedure)
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> Tel: 613.235.4902
> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
> Adapting the web to all users
> Including those with
disabilities
>
>
--
Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 <tel:%2B1.443.300.2200>
sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net <mailto:sip%3Ajanina@asterisk.rednote.net>
Email: janina@rednote.net
Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility
Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
Indie UI http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
Received on Sunday, 24 November 2013 20:21:51 UTC