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RE: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

From: Hoffman, Allen <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:26:24 +0000
To: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
CC: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, "kirsten@can-adapt.com" <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
Message-ID: <F2EC405EEF0B414E8B1415742F1C8BEC18C8C0CB@D2ASEPREA004.DSA.DHS>
Just for the record.
Interoperability with JAWS should never be used as an indicator of sufficiency.  Determining if sufficient programmatic information is made available via the various mechanisms involved is the determiner--JAWS may use the information or not, but many use other tools for access.  Writing code to any specific AT should imply it is the only solution within a defined environment which does happen, but WCAG is not an environment specific set of techniques.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:19 AM
To: David MacDonald; james nurthen
Cc: 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

Yes scope does need to be added to the simplest tables too in certain situations. One such is already in the existing technique for scope. Look at the Contact Us table  where row header is in col#2 and not col#1. 
That table is in a page of the Resources link for the technique. 
But that is not the subject of the comments being considered by Survey #9 or 11. David M has detailed the problem again.
And it

On Mon, 10/21/13, james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
 To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>
 Cc: "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, kirsten@can-adapt.com
 Date: Monday, October 21, 2013, 2:28 PM
 I meant H51 not H63 - sorry.
 It was my understanding that Sailesh is proposing that scope
 be added even for the simplest tables. I find this
 unnecessary. If you take the following example - this works
 absolutely fine in JAWS and FF. It is only when tables get
 more complex (i.e. when row and column headers are not in
 the first column and row of the table) when scope becomes
 <table border="1">
   <caption>Contact Information</caption>
     <th>Joel Garner</th>
     <th>Clive Lloyd</th>
     <th>Gordon Greenidge</th>
 On 10/19/2013 10:10 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
 > PS
 > Note, the tweaked table and added h63 test is here:
 > http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html
 > =============
 > Not sure I understand the question James... I don't
 think anyone is
 > proposing this table for any of our techniques... it is
 simply a test
 > table...
 > I had several action items.
 > 1) Check hx in a table
 > 2) Check what is reported to an API when there are two
 level of <th>
 > 3) Check the behaviour with and without the scope
 > 4) Check what AT reads two layers of table
 <th>without ids, headers
 > Sailesh produced a table for the tests which I tweaked
 to make it validate
 > and tested using my full morning to do so.
 > I think h63 was a smaller part of the discussion as I
 understand it.
 > But just for thoroughness I have done the same test
 with h63 example code,
 > and have added it to the page, as well as the results
 of the testing.
 > In JAWS the scope is necessary to prevent all the row
 headers above a row
 > header from being read hen tabbing into the row header
 column, and the same
 > for column headers. This appears to be behaviour just
 in JAWS and not in
 > NVDA, or Voice Over.
 > I hope that these tests fulfill my action items, and
 informs the group
 > regarding:
 > 1) the outstanding issue of <hx> headings in a
 > 2) recommendations about the necessity or non-necessity
 of scope on simple
 > tables
 > 3) the question about two lawyers of headings reading
 fine in both JAWS and
 > NVDA without headers and ids
 > Cheers,
 > David MacDonald
 > CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
 > Tel:  613.235.4902
 > http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
 > www.Can-Adapt.com
 >        Adapting the web to all
 Including those with disabilities
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 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
 > Sent: October 19, 2013 12:11 PM
 > To: David MacDonald
 > Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
 > Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and
 without scope
 > If we are discussing modifying H63 to include scope
 shouldn't we use a
 > simpler table than the example (one without these extra
 H3 cells in the
 > table)?
 > Regards,
 > James
 > On Oct 19, 2013, at 8:55 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
 >> Hi Sailesh and all
 >> I tested the table with NVDA, VoiceOver and Jaws
 and updated results
 >> after the tables on the page below.
 >> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.ht
 >> Cheers
 >> David MacDonald
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
 >> Sent: October 17, 2013 11:21 PM
 >> To: WCAG; Joshue O Connor
 >> Subject: Action item: table with TH with and
 without scope
 >> Survey items #9 and 11::
 >> The comments in May 2013  were primarily
 influenced because of better
 >> support for the scope attribute by JAWS and NVDA.
 >> NVDA 2012 like JAWS read all cells marked up as TH
 to the left of
 >> current cell (in column header rows) and all cells
 marked up as TH
 >> above current cell for row header cells. (NVDA 2013
 does not do so
 >> now) And I was using an older version of FF in
 April / May.
 >> Hence changes were suggested to H63 and H51 (survey
 items 9 and 11.
 >> This comment was never submitted as a new technique
 but suggested a
 >> few changes to the existing technique.
 >> Representing it as a new technique in the survey is
 not appropriate.
 >> For H63 survey item#9: The example refers to a
 'published schedule'
 >> but the code that follows that is a contact info
 >> That contact Info table is from a link of the
 Resources page for H63.
 >> Here is a link to tables marked up with TH with and
 without the scope
 >> attribute.
 >> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table_scopeDemo.htm
 >> Regards,
 >> Sailesh
Received on Tuesday, 22 October 2013 15:27:43 UTC

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