Re: Revisiting whether & when we might write a technique related to SC 1.4.2 and OS per-app volume settings [was Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?]

Just a few opinions from me:
1. I think there is probably no reason this couldn't be a sufficient
technique, with the usual accessibility support caveats
2. Publishing it as a WCAG technique only helps in making authors more
aware of it. It does not help with the problem of how to reach end users
who would be expected to know about this setting.
3. Do we really think that documenting this particular technique, which has
the issues that have been discussed, is a more important use of our time
than all of the other potential work the WG has before us? (That said,
we've probably spent more time discussing it than it would take to write it
up.)


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:

>  Colleagues (and especially Gregg),
>
> Given the note from Christophe below pointing out that we have a second
> desktop OS that offers this functionality (Linux with GNOME), and a message
> earlier today from Ramón Corominas pointing out that we have techniques for
> PDF accessibility that appear to only work on a single platform (Windows),
> I find myself wondering if there we aren't being consistent in when WCAG
> may publish a technique for meeting a success criteria.
>
> It seems to me the argument now boils down to "too few users know about
> this option" (since the argument "this option isn't available in enough
> places" doesn't seem to have prevented PDF techniques).
>
> If that is the case, then wouldn't publishing a technique - which made
> clear it required recent versions of Windows and/or GNOME - BE a way of
> getting more publicity for this?  And wouldn't it BE a way to better bring
> it to the attention of user agent & platform creators?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
> On 6/27/2013 7:57 AM, Christophe Strobbe wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Am Do, 27.06.2013, 07:02 schrieb Peter Korn:
>
>  David,
>
> I started this thread after reading a computer advice columnist describe
> this feature to a supplicant who was complaining about websites
> automatically playing sounds/music, which interfered with his enjoyment
> of the music he was already playing from some other (non-web) app.  And
> I realized... we have a potential electronic curb cut here!
>
> So I brought it to this group seeking discussion and insights - which
> I've received!
>
>
> And if I may summarize the discussion/insights:
>
>   * Technically this is a way to meet this SC (assuming you are running
>     on Windows 7 or some other OS that offers this feature)
>   * Some are dubious this would be approved as a formal WCAG technique,
>     for several different reasons
>   * Some like this approach as it offers a single choke point vs. the
>     work that every web page author would have to do
>
>
> My own sense is that this functionality would be worth advertising more
> widely, so folks knew about it,
>
>  The "technique" is listed in "Better Web Browsing: Tips for Customizing
> Your Computer" at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/browsing#volume> <http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/browsing#volume>. The link
> related to Windows 7 points to a Microsoft webpage with a video that also
> shows the mixer.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Christophe
>
> PS: GNOME's sound volume also allows you to set the volume on an
> application basis, but the Applications tab on the sound settings dialog
> only displays applications that are currently rendering sound. See the
> screen shots at<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl#User_Experience> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl#User_Experience>. I
> did a quick test with Firefox and YouTube on Fedora 18, set the volume for
> Firefox to a much lower volume than overall system volume, and the system
> seemed to remember the Firefox volume both after restarting the browser
> and after restarting the OS.
>
>
>
>  and we gained some more experience with
> users using it - and then the extent to which they liked/disliked it.
> More OSes might be persuaded to offer functionality like this.  User
> agents might be persuaded to offer this functionality directly.  And
> both OSes and user agents might find ways to offer the functionality
> with fewer steps.
>
> And then somewhere along the continuum of these potential user agent /
> platform improvements, it might be sufficiently widespread and
> sufficiently easy that there would be little objection to adding this as
> a sufficient technique, similar to how we treat browser zoom.
>
>
> Because doing this once and easily in a single place has got to be
> preferable to every audio-playing browser page implementing it in their
> own way...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
>
> On 6/26/2013 6:17 PM, David MacDonald wrote:
>
>  Hi Peter
>
> 1.4.4 language came after many iterations ... I would probably be
> loath to hold it up as a jumping off precedent...
>
> the techniques for 1.4.4 are about “not interfering” with the browsers
> natural ability to zoom... there is no advice to users, except in an
> indirect way ... it’s to the authors...
>
> Perhaps we could create a failure if authors interfere with the OS
> natural ability to turn down the volume of the browser like we do in
> 1.4.4... but it leaves me scratching my head.
>
> I’m probably coming to this discussion a bit late, and I’m not sure
> what problem that we are trying to solve with these contortions...
> perhaps there is some good reason... if so perhaps I’ll join in the
> “contorting” after a June 30 deadlines...
>
> Cheers
>
> David MacDonald
>
> **
>
> *Can**Adapt**Solutions Inc.*//
>
> /Adapting the web to *all* users/
>
> /Including those with disabilities/
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
> *From:*Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com <peter.korn@oracle.com>]
> *Sent:* June-26-13 6:36 PM
> *To:* David MacDonald
> *Cc:* james.nurthen@oracle.com; 'Adam Solomon'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden';
> 'WCAG'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
> *Subject:* Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on
> Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?
>
> David,
>
> I'm curious - how is this "user technique" of the user turning down or
> muting the volume of their user agent in their OS any different from
> another "user technique" of the user having their web user agent
> enlarge the content on a web page (as a mechanism for meeting SC 1.4.4
> Resize Text)?
>
> In other words, how is G142: Using a technology that has
> commonly-available user agents that support zoom<http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G142> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G142> any
> different form a potential technique like: "Using a technology that
> can independently adjust or mute  user agent volume levels"?
>
>
> Both are "user techniques" rather than "authoring techniques".   And
> both tend to always work (though both should be tested; I can imagine
> some hacky ways of bypassing OS-level volume settings using downloaded
> native code).
>
>
> Peter
>
> On 6/26/2013 3:10 PM, David MacDonald wrote:
>
>     Right you are James,
>
>     It’s down an extra layer in the mixer, so this volume would have
>     to be off before the person starts surfing. No way to get to it
>     with music playing.
>
>     It is not so much an authoring technique, it is a user technique,
>     and we generally don’t get into telling folks how to use their own
>     technology, although we have a few examples in the techniques, of
>     user agent notes with JAWS commands...
>
>     But I think we need a bright line between Authoring techniques for
>     our “Authoring Guidelines” and strategies for users... the latter
>     is not an authoring technique which is our mandate.
>
>     Cheers
>
>     David MacDonald
>
>     **
>
>     *Can**Adapt**Solutions Inc.*
>
>     /Adapting the web to *all* users/
>
>     /Including those with disabilities/
>
>     www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>     *From:*james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>     [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com <james.nurthen@oracle.com>]
>     *Sent:* June-26-13 5:13 PM
>     *To:* David MacDonald
>     *Cc:* Adam Solomon; Gregg Vanderheiden; Peter Korn; WCAG;
>     kirsten@can-adapt.com <mailto:kirsten@can-adapt.com> <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
>     *Subject:* Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by
>     relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do
>     it for you?
>
>     On my version of windows 7 I can reduce the volume of Firefox/ie
>     without reducing my jaws volume.
>
>
>     On Jun 26, 2013, at 14:07, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca
>     <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca> <david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
>
>         I just checked this... it turns off the Screen Reader also, so
>         no I would say not.
>
>         The whole point is so the screen reader can be hear without
>         music drowning it out.
>
>         Cheers
>
>         David MacDonald
>
>         **
>
>         *Can**Adapt**Solutions Inc.*
>
>         /Adapting the web to *all* users/
>
>         /Including those with disabilities/
>
>         www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>         *From:*Adam Solomon [mailto:adam.solomon2@gmail.com <adam.solomon2@gmail.com>]
>         *Sent:* June-26-13 4:40 PM
>         *To:* Gregg Vanderheiden
>         *Cc:* Peter Korn; WCAG
>         *Subject:* Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by
>         relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent)
>         to do it for you?
>
>         Would it not be sufficient to be in an environment where one
>         has access to, but is not limited to windows 7? We have
>         considered techniques that have support only in certain
>         browsers, especially the infamous "headers technique" relying
>         on a plugin. With regard to web technology I believe we have
>         said in the meetings that support for a certain technique does
>         not have to be across the board. Is an operating system
>         different in this regard?
>
>         On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden
>         <gv@trace.wisc.edu <mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu> <gv@trace.wisc.edu>> wrote:
>
>         Yes that would be a technique if you are in an environment
>         that guarantees that only Windows 7 (or whatever versions) are
>         used by people viewing the web page.   Not sure how you would
>         enforce that.  Otherwise it would not work.
>
>           So we couldn’t list it as a sufficient tech I wouldn’t think.
>
>         /Gregg/
>
>         --------------------------------------------------------
>
>         Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>         Director Trace R&D Center
>         Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>         and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
>
>         Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
>         Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International -
>         http://Raisingthefloor.org
>         and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -
>         http://GPII.net
>
>         On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:39 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com
>         <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com> <peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
>             Colleagues,
>
>             I was recently reminded that Windows 7 (and perhaps
>             earlier) has a nice feature in the "Volume Mixer" panel,
>             which provides support for independent, per-application
>             setting of the volume level (including per-application
>             muting).  This specifically allows me to turn down or off
>             the volume of all audio coming from my web user agent.
>
>             Would you agree that this would be "a mechanism [that] is
>             available to control audio volume independently from the
>             overall system volume level", such that web pages/apps
>             running on Windows 7 could automatically meet SC 1.4.2
>             Audio Control?
>
>             If so, is this perhaps a potential new success technique
>             for us?  Something like "Running on a platform or user
>             agent that allows the volume level to be adjusted or muted
>             either by the user agent or on a per-application basis"?
>
>
>             On the other hand...  would doing this effectively prevent
>             the use of cloud-based AT?  If I'm not mistaken, we
>             typically haven't done a lot in our techniques that
>             contemplates web-delivered/cloud-based AT...
>
>
>             Regards,
>
>             Peter
>
>             --
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>
>
>             Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>             Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>
>             500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
>
>             <green-for-email-sig_0.gif>
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>             developing practices and products that help protect the
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>
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> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to
> developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>
>
>  --
> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com> <http://www.oracle.com>
> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to
> developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>
>
>
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> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 5069522 <+1%20650%205069522>
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
> [image: Green Oracle] <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is
> committed to developing practices and products that help protect the
> environment
>