Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?

I think this is a very good summary Peter

A couple comments.



> And if I may summarize the discussion/insights:
> Technically this is a way to meet this SC (assuming you are running on Windows 7 or some other OS that offers this feature)
(assuming the viewers of your web page are.....)
> Some are dubious this would be approved as a formal WCAG technique, for several different reasons
> Some like this approach as it offers a single choke point vs. the work that every web page author would have to do
Agree.  Choke point doesn’t quite seem the right word - but yes -- solving this by having better user agents, rather than requiring authors to all do something, is by far the superior approach and what we should work toward. 
> 
> My own sense is that this functionality would be worth advertising more widely, so folks knew about it,
> 
absolutely -- got some ideas how to do so? 
	- add to user workshops? 
	- get into user newsletters?  
> and we gained some more experience with users using it - and then the extent to which they liked/disliked it. 
> 
Yes - and separate how they like the feature from how they like the ease of use of it. (which could be then improved.)
> More OSes might be persuaded to offer functionality like this.  User agents might be persuaded to offer this functionality directly.  And both OSes and user agents might find ways to offer the functionality with fewer steps.
> 
Yes.  I think a plug in for browsers could be a first start for testing? 
> And then somewhere along the continuum of these potential user agent / platform improvements, it might be sufficiently widespread and sufficiently easy that there would be little objection to adding this as a sufficient technique, similar to how we treat browser zoom.
> 
It would then be a natural for a technique. 
> 
> Because doing this once and easily in a single place has got to be preferable to every audio-playing browser page implementing it in their own way...
> 
yep
> 



Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -  http://GPII.net

On Jun 27, 2013, at 7:02 AM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:

> David,
> 
> I started this thread after reading a computer advice columnist describe this feature to a supplicant who was complaining about websites automatically playing sounds/music, which interfered with his enjoyment of the music he was already playing from some other (non-web) app.  And I realized... we have a potential electronic curb cut here!
> 
> So I brought it to this group seeking discussion and insights - which I've received!
> 
> 
> And if I may summarize the discussion/insights:
> Technically this is a way to meet this SC (assuming you are running on Windows 7 or some other OS that offers this feature)
> Some are dubious this would be approved as a formal WCAG technique, for several different reasons
> Some like this approach as it offers a single choke point vs. the work that every web page author would have to do
> 
> My own sense is that this functionality would be worth advertising more widely, so folks knew about it, and we gained some more experience with users using it - and then the extent to which they liked/disliked it.  More OSes might be persuaded to offer functionality like this.  User agents might be persuaded to offer this functionality directly.  And both OSes and user agents might find ways to offer the functionality with fewer steps.
> And then somewhere along the continuum of these potential user agent / platform improvements, it might be sufficiently widespread and sufficiently easy that there would be little objection to adding this as a sufficient technique, similar to how we treat browser zoom.
> 
> Because doing this once and easily in a single place has got to be preferable to every audio-playing browser page implementing it in their own way...
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Peter 
> 
> On 6/26/2013 6:17 PM, David MacDonald wrote:
>> Hi Peter
>>  
>> 1.4.4 language came after many iterations ... I would probably be loath to hold it up as a jumping off precedent...
>> the techniques for 1.4.4 are about “not interfering” with the browsers natural ability to zoom... there is no advice to users, except in an indirect way ... it’s to the authors...
>>  
>> Perhaps we could create a failure if authors interfere with the OS natural ability to turn down the volume of the browser like we do in 1.4.4... but it leaves me scratching my head.
>>  
>> I’m probably coming to this discussion a bit late, and I’m not sure what problem that we are trying to solve with these contortions... perhaps there is some good reason... if so perhaps I’ll join in the “contorting” after a June 30 deadlines...
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>  
>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>   Adapting the web to all users
>>             Including those with disabilities
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>  
>> From: Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com] 
>> Sent: June-26-13 6:36 PM
>> To: David MacDonald
>> Cc: james.nurthen@oracle.com; 'Adam Solomon'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'WCAG'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>> Subject: Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?
>>  
>> David,
>> 
>> I'm curious - how is this "user technique" of the user turning down or muting the volume of their user agent in their OS any different from another "user technique" of the user having their web user agent enlarge the content on a web page (as a mechanism for meeting SC 1.4.4 Resize Text)?
>> 
>> In other words, how is G142: Using a technology that has commonly-available user agents that support zoom any different form a potential technique like: "Using a technology that can independently adjust or mute  user agent volume levels"?
>> 
>> 
>> Both are "user techniques" rather than "authoring techniques".   And both tend to always work (though both should be tested; I can imagine some hacky ways of bypassing OS-level volume settings using downloaded native code).
>> 
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> On 6/26/2013 3:10 PM, David MacDonald wrote:
>> Right you are James,
>>  
>> It’s down an extra layer in the mixer, so this volume would have to be off before the person starts surfing. No way to get to it with music playing.
>>  
>> It is not so much an authoring technique, it is a user technique, and we generally don’t get into telling folks how to use their own technology, although we have a few examples in the techniques, of user agent notes with JAWS commands...
>>  
>> But I think we need a bright line between Authoring techniques for our “Authoring Guidelines” and strategies for users... the latter is not an authoring technique which is our mandate.
>>  
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>  
>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>   Adapting the web to all users
>>             Including those with disabilities
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>  
>> From: james.nurthen@oracle.com [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com] 
>> Sent: June-26-13 5:13 PM
>> To: David MacDonald
>> Cc: Adam Solomon; Gregg Vanderheiden; Peter Korn; WCAG; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>> Subject: Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?
>>  
>> On my version of windows 7 I can reduce the volume of Firefox/ie without reducing my jaws volume. 
>> 
>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 14:07, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> I just checked this... it turns off the Screen Reader also, so no I would say not.
>>  
>> The whole point is so the screen reader can be hear without music drowning it out.
>>  
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>  
>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>   Adapting the web to all users
>>             Including those with disabilities
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>  
>> From: Adam Solomon [mailto:adam.solomon2@gmail.com] 
>> Sent: June-26-13 4:40 PM
>> To: Gregg Vanderheiden
>> Cc: Peter Korn; WCAG
>> Subject: Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?
>>  
>> Would it not be sufficient to be in an environment where one has access to, but is not limited to windows 7? We have considered techniques that have support only in certain browsers, especially the infamous "headers technique" relying on a plugin. With regard to web technology I believe we have said in the meetings that support for a certain technique does not have to be across the board. Is an operating system different in this regard?
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> Yes that would be a technique if you are in an environment that guarantees that only Windows 7 (or whatever versions) are used by people viewing the web page.   Not sure how you would enforce that.  Otherwise it would not work.
>>  
>>   So we couldn’t list it as a sufficient tech I wouldn’t think. 
>>  
>> Gregg
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>> Director Trace R&D Center
>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>> and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
>> Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -  http://GPII.net
>>  
>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:39 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Colleagues,
>> 
>> I was recently reminded that Windows 7 (and perhaps earlier) has a nice feature in the "Volume Mixer" panel, which provides support for independent, per-application setting of the volume level (including per-application muting).  This specifically allows me to turn down or off the volume of all audio coming from my web user agent.
>> 
>> Would you agree that this would be "a mechanism [that] is available to control audio volume independently from the overall system volume level", such that web pages/apps running on Windows 7 could automatically meet SC 1.4.2 Audio Control?
>> 
>> If so, is this perhaps a potential new success technique for us?  Something like "Running on a platform or user agent that allows the volume level to                                   be adjusted or muted either by the user agent or on a per-application basis"?
>> 
>> 
>> On the other hand...  would doing this effectively prevent the use of cloud-based AT?  If I'm not mistaken, we typically haven't done a lot in our techniques that contemplates web-delivered/cloud-based AT...
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Peter
>> -- 
>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
>> 
>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> -- 
>> 
>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
>> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
> 
> -- 
> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 
> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment