Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?

Hi  Peter

the difference is not in the what but rather than the coverage.'

the question is :    Is it reasonable to assume that the user can access this?

I agree with you that the SC only requires that it be possible - not that it be easy.    So technically this approach (the win tool) would work for windows users (who know about it). 

however 
	1) it wouldn’t be a very good assumption that people who need this, can figure it out.  It is a pretty obscure capability that i'll bet few people on the WCAG knew about - and only a small fraction of the public.
	2) it would fail as a sufficient technique because it is only on one platform and won't work for any other platforms including  Winphone7/8, Android, iOS, Mac OS, ChromeOS, linux etc. And a LOT of people are using those.  And a lot of people who are blind (though not so much Win Phone7/8 right now).     

 So it wouldn’t be a good assumption that users could rely on this.  (unlike G142 where it says "commonly-available user agents"  so it works across platforms and even user agents. - including most of that group.) 

So what you propose would be a technique (for windows users who know about it) -- but I don't think it would be considered 'sufficient' by the WG.   But you can propose it if you like  - because only the Working Group speaks for the working group. 


Does that help? 


Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -  http://GPII.net

On Jun 27, 2013, at 12:36 AM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:

> David,
> 
> I'm curious - how is this "user technique" of the user turning down or muting the volume of their user agent in their OS any different from another "user technique" of the user having their web user agent enlarge the content on a web page (as a mechanism for meeting SC 1.4.4 Resize Text)?
> 
> In other words, how is G142: Using a technology that has commonly-available user agents that support zoom any different form a potential technique like: "Using a technology that can independently adjust or mute  user agent volume levels"?
> 
> 
> Both are "user techniques" rather than "authoring techniques".   And both tend to always work (though both should be tested; I can imagine some hacky ways of bypassing OS-level volume settings using downloaded native code).
> 
> 
> Peter
> 
> On 6/26/2013 3:10 PM, David MacDonald wrote:
>> Right you are James,
>>  
>> It’s down an extra layer in the mixer, so this volume would have to be off before the person starts surfing. No way to get to it with music playing.
>>  
>> It is not so much an authoring technique, it is a user technique, and we generally don’t get into telling folks how to use their own technology, although we have a few examples in the techniques, of user agent notes with JAWS commands...
>>  
>> But I think we need a bright line between Authoring techniques for our “Authoring Guidelines” and strategies for users... the latter is not an authoring technique which is our mandate.
>>  
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>  
>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>   Adapting the web to all users
>>             Including those with disabilities
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>  
>> From: james.nurthen@oracle.com [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com] 
>> Sent: June-26-13 5:13 PM
>> To: David MacDonald
>> Cc: Adam Solomon; Gregg Vanderheiden; Peter Korn; WCAG; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>> Subject: Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?
>>  
>> On my version of windows 7 I can reduce the volume of Firefox/ie without reducing my jaws volume. 
>> 
>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 14:07, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> I just checked this... it turns off the Screen Reader also, so no I would say not.
>>  
>> The whole point is so the screen reader can be hear without music drowning it out.
>>  
>> Cheers
>> David MacDonald
>>  
>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>   Adapting the web to all users
>>             Including those with disabilities
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>  
>> From: Adam Solomon [mailto:adam.solomon2@gmail.com] 
>> Sent: June-26-13 4:40 PM
>> To: Gregg Vanderheiden
>> Cc: Peter Korn; WCAG
>> Subject: Re: Question about SC 1.4.2 - can this be met by relying on Windows (or otherwise the platform or user agent) to do it for you?
>>  
>> Would it not be sufficient to be in an environment where one has access to, but is not limited to windows 7? We have considered techniques that have support only in certain                 browsers, especially the infamous "headers technique" relying on a plugin. With regard to web technology I believe we have said in the meetings that support for a certain technique does not have to be across the board. Is an operating system different in this regard?
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> Yes that would be a technique if you are in an environment that guarantees that only Windows 7 (or whatever versions) are used by people viewing the web page.   Not sure how you would enforce that.  Otherwise it would not work.
>>  
>>   So we couldn’t list it as a sufficient tech I wouldn’t think. 
>>  
>> Gregg
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>> Director Trace R&D Center
>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>> and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
>> Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -  http://GPII.net
>>  
>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:39 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Colleagues,
>> 
>> I was recently reminded that Windows 7 (and perhaps earlier) has a nice feature in the "Volume Mixer" panel, which provides support for independent, per-application setting of the volume level (including per-application muting).  This specifically allows me to turn down or off the volume of all audio coming from my web user agent.
>> 
>> Would you agree that this would be "a mechanism [that] is available to control audio volume independently from the overall system volume level", such that web pages/apps running on Windows 7 could automatically meet SC 1.4.2 Audio Control?
>> 
>> If so, is this perhaps a potential new success technique for us?  Something like "Running on a platform or user agent that allows the volume level to be adjusted or muted either by the user agent or on a per-application basis"?
>> 
>> 
>> On the other hand...  would doing this effectively prevent the use of cloud-based AT?  If I'm not mistaken, we typically haven't done a lot in our techniques that contemplates web-delivered/cloud-based AT...
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Peter
>> -- 
>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
>> 
>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>>  
>>  
> 
> -- 
> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment