- From: Loretta Guarino Reid <lorettaguarino@google.com>
- Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:51:46 -0700
- To: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
- Cc: adam.solomon2@gmail.com, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAHu5OWYPuT26k=q+WFRyp=9siiKA4M10JA80JXm_8o1mYUbxBg@mail.gmail.com>
This is the accessibility support question. But failures are stronger than techniques, and I don't think we have accessibility support allowances for them. I think we do need to revisit this failure. On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>wrote: > Until everything (most everything?) supports ARIA - wouldn’t using ARIA > only be equivalent to having no label for all those who use (must use in > their company) technologies that do not support ARIA? > > > *Gregg* > -------------------------------------------------------- > Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D. > Director Trace R&D Center > Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering > and Biomedical Engineering > University of Wisconsin-Madison > > Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International > and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project > http://Raisingthefloor.org --- http://GPII.net > > > > > > > > > On Jun 30, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Adam Solomon wrote: > > Agree 100% - it should be this way - but is that a failure? > Regarding ie6: We have a technique, for instance, which allows browser zoom > as a substitute for resizable text sizes. This does not work in ie6, yet it > is an official technique. For a company which required conformance and > provided their employees with ie6, you are absolutely right - this fails. > But for open internet, ie6 is not mandated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On > Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:26 PM > To: 'WCAG' > Subject: RE: F68 forbids WAI ARIA to replace label element > > I see no reason why LABEL should not be used when visible text label is > present for a standard HTML form control. User agents old and new support > it. ARIA-LABELLEDBY could be used as a hack to associate multiple labels > with a form control but it should not be used if it is the only label for a > control. Even today there are companies who test with IE 6 ... they do so > because there are users still using it. There are users who are using older > versions of screen readers and cannot afford to buy the latest JAWS / > WinEyes. Right NVDA etc. is free but some PWD / older folks are comfortable > with their AT and do not want to switch. > Just because a technique is there does not mean it should be used every > where even if it is not recommended in that situation. > Sailesh > > --- On Thu, 6/30/11, Adam Solomon <adam.solomon2@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Adam Solomon <adam.solomon2@gmail.com> > Subject: RE: F68 forbids WAI ARIA to replace label element > To: "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, "'David MacDonald'" < > david100@sympatico.ca> > Cc: "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > Date: Thursday, June 30, 2011, 1:31 PM > > > While you are all certainly correct in stressing the fact that it is > preferable to implement native code, I think it harsh to fail in a situation > where aria-labelledby is utilized. We are always stressing the fact that our > techniques are sufficient, but not exclusive of other techniques which might > work. De facto, aria will currently work for users in a non-primitive user > agent environment (unless I'm mistakenly assuming that it is currently > supported by modern browsers). How can we then fail this seemingly > sufficient technique? Not elegant, yet it does the job. Yes, a hack, but a > successful one. I think it unwise to demand state of the art solutions as a > prerequisite - better to keep it advisory in nature. > > adam > > -----Original Message----- > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On > Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 6:48 PM > To: David MacDonald > Cc: 'WCAG' > Subject: RE: F68 forbids WAI ARIA to replace label element > > David, > > That's a good point Sailesh > > The HTML spec says each label element has exactly one corresponding > >field...... so in those cases, F68 may be OK, but I don't think F68 >allows > for the freedom that we find in the WAI ARIA language of "wherever > >possible", because F68 applies to all field elements. > > Sailesh: F68 applies only where UI has a visible text label and association > is not made or made incorrectly. > F68 does not apply to all situations... meaning all form controls on a > page. > > There may be times when a standard label element must be used to describe > >more than one field... I think this is a situation where it is perhaps it > >is a good choice, and where the label element doesn't work too well. > >Currently this would fail under F68, no? > > Sailesh: Use of title attribute is allowed as per techniques when no > visible label is present or in a situation like a form within data table. > Title attribute or off-screen label can be used to relate col and row > header with form controls to aid non-visuall / AT users. This is well > supported by browsers and AT. ARIA not necessary here. > Also HTML allows more than one label to be associated with a form control. > But user agents do not support this reliably though this has been in the > specs for years. So aria-labelledby / aria-describedby can be relied upon in > these situations. Using ARIA here is a hack for user agents' limitations. > Again, ARIA is meant to be used for dynamic content using scripting and > custom elements- not on standard form controls. (No scripting is required to > code standard HTML form controls). One uses ARIA as a hack to counter > limitations of user agents but thatis not what ARIA is designed for. > And that is the real problem: when user agents do not support or do not > support a feature uniformly the user suffers. One may come out with elegant > specs but one is at mercy of user agents. Already we see some ARIA features > are better supported in FF and not in IE or not at all. > Another example: The title attribute may be used on most HTML elements as > per specs but is not uniformly supported by user agents. > Sailesh Panchang > www.deque.com > > > > > > David MacDonald > www.eramp.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On > Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang > Sent: June-29-11 10:32 PM > To: WCAG > Subject: Re: F68 forbids WAI ARIA to replace label element > > I think one needs to take a step back and look at the WAI-ARIA specs. The > intro clearly states that one should use standard HTML elements wherever > possible because these are natively supported and role, state etc is exposed > to browsers and AT. ARIA is designed to improve the accessibility of > dynamic content generated by scripts including custom elements / widgets. It > is referred to as a bridging technology by the specs. HTML works just fine > with browsers and AT. Use technology for purpose it is designed and intended > and documented. > I quote, "It is not appropriate to create objects with style and script > when the host language provides a semantic element for that type of > objects". > So it is indeed a failure if one uses aria-labelledby on a standard HTML > INPUT element without using HTML LABEL element. Use ARIA where standard HTML > is not designed to work. > Refer to 1.3 and 1.4 on > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/introduction > > Thanks, > Sailesh Panchang > www.deque.com > > Tel 571-344-1765 > --- On Wed, 6/29/11, Chris Beer <chris@codex.net.au> wrote: > > From: Chris Beer <chris@codex.net.au> > Subject: Re: F68 forbids WAI ARIA to replace label element > To: "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 6:12 PM > > Agreed. Furthermore it will need an careful genericising rewrite to account > not only for the fact that ARIA labelledby can be applied to more than > simply form/input controls, but also to make it HTML5 applicable as well as > 4.0x and XHTML. > If no one gets to it, its on my to do list with HTML5 STs, (yeah yeah, I > know) but that said, we'll need to look at all the techniques after they > move to generalized (X)HTML for ARIA conflicts and impacts. > Chris Beer (iPhone) > On 30/06/2011, at 3:24, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20101014/F68 �As we ramp up > for the introduction of WAI ARIA, we may need to fix some of our failures. > F68 is a binary check that requires a <label> element. If not there is a > failure of 4.1.2 �I think we�ll need to allow for wai-aria (labelledby), > while acknowledging the preference to native code. �David > MacDonaldwww.eramp.com > > > > > > > > >
Received on Thursday, 30 June 2011 19:52:12 UTC