- From: ~:'' ???????????? <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
- Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:36:04 +0000
- To: "Slatin, John M" <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>
- Cc: "lisa" <lisa@ubaccess.com>, "David MacDonald" <befree@magma.ca>, "Bailey, Bruce" <Bruce.Bailey@ed.gov>, "Loretta Guarino Reid" <lorettaguarino@google.com>, "Sofia Celic" <Sofia.Celic@visionaustralia.org>, "Jan Dekelver" <jan.dekelver@khk.be>, "Chuck Hitchcock" <chitchcock@cast.org>, "Hiroshi Kawamura" <hkawa@rehab.go.jp>, "Gez Lemon" <gez.lemon@gmail.com>, "Clayton Lewis" <clayton.lewis@colorado.edu>, "Gian Sampson-Wild" <gian@tkh.com.au>, "Keith Smith" <k.smith@bild.org.uk>, "Roberto Scano" <rscano@iwa-italy.org>, "Stephen Shore" <Tumbalaika@aol.com>, "Nancy Ward" <nward@thedesk.info>, "Paul Bowman" <pbowman@gmu.edu>, "John Slatin" <jslatin@mail.utexas.edu>, "Elbert Johns" <ejohns@thearclink.org>, "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "Michael Cooper" <cooper@w3.org>, "Judy Brewer" <jbrewer@w3.org>, "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
John, I didn't say "we shouldn't talk about these sites in terms of full WAI accessibility" I said "(I) won't comment on their WAI accessibility, as that could embarrass both parties" the fact is that if one has a budget or desire to develop illustrated resources, whether for children or adults, one is bound to consider the authoring tools available and the results produced. Flash tools are often chosen. I've chosen to use SVG, but that requires much greater patience and more dedication than most will have at the present time. Are you for instance aware that SVG1.1 the spec that most current implementations rely on does not include keyboard navigation> I spent nearly three years badgering Safari, Opera and Mozilla to include keyboard support, outside of WAI. I was successful, they broke the specification... but it was a huge task. I am in total agreement regarding the difficulties, but the fact remains that WAI & WCAG has at least as far to travel in developing their understanding of the issues. in 2004, I asked Judy and the chairs of P&FWG to let me participate as a member, I have renewed the request over the past three years and am still awaiting a response. Their lack of interest, directly led to me leaving WAI at that time. Yesterday I agreed a t a lunch meeting to file bug reports with UA developers to provide a dialogue that enables Flash to be disabled. When instituted this should meet some of your concerns regarding Disney. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 Mar 2007, at 16:07, Slatin, John M wrote: I would find it very helpful if someone would describe at least some of the icons used on the Disney site or Yahooligans, etc. I'm familiar with icons like those for Home and Mail, etc., and with many international road signs, but I have no way to tell which ones may be used on the Disney site. The Disney page is now almost entirely Flash. Audio plays automatically, which overwhelms my screen reader, but if I listen really really hard while I use the downArrow to go down the page one line at a time, I hear what I've transcribed in the JAWS transcript below. Note that JAWS puts the word "button" befor each of the numbers below. But I can't access them and I don't know what they are. Jonathan, you said we shouldn't talk about these sites in terms of full WAI accessibility. I disagree. That is exactly what we have to do. <JAWS transcript> Disney.com | The Official Home Page For All Things Disney - hit frame hit frame end ads frame ads frame end Flash movie start 2 4 6 8 10 16 18 Disney For You 21 23 Search Disney.com 27 31 32 33 Find Disney Movies, TV, Games, and more! Preschool 37 Boys You're Watching 41 Girls 45 Caffeine Patch Exclusive Kids & Teens Hot Games 50 Families 53 55 Visit the site Disney Fans 58 62 What's New in Games 66 68 69 70 71 Playlist 74 Caffeine Patch Exclusive 78 Check out this exclusive scene from Meet The Robinsons! Find More Games 83 85 What's New in Music 87 88 91 94 96 97 100 101 103 105 106 107 108 109 110 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 120 Make Us Your Homepage | Switch to Disney Online Lite Site Map | FAQ/Help | Your Account | Guest Services Privacy Policy/Your California Privacy Rights | Terms of Use | Internet Safety International Sites | Corporate Info | Legal Notices | More Disney Sites © Disney. All rights reserved. 124 125 126 Flash movie end </JAWS transcript> "Good design is accessible design." Dr. John M. Slatin, Director Accessibility Institute University of Texas at Austin FAC 248C 1 University Station G9600 Austin, TX 78712 ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524 email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility -----Original Message----- From: j.chetwynd@btinternet.com [mailto:j.chetwynd@btinternet.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:04 AM To: lisa Cc: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG' Subject: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility" "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility" Lisa, many symbols work across all known languages, eg toilet signs, miming thirsty, or hungry etc symbols as used for web navigation, apart from peepo on commercial websites: well apart from the obvious and ubiquitous home, email, video and other icons... disney, bbc, yahoo and slashdot enough? there are plenty more and better examples.... won't comment on their WAI accessibility, as that could embarrass both parties ~:" http://home.disney.go.com/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/cartoons/ yahooligans.com for many years was a fully iconised portal http:// kids.yahoo.com/news is their current beta for the news slashdot.org was another. icons are still used, but no longer on the navigation bar... best wishes Jonathan Chetwynd On 15 Mar 2007, at 08:55, lisa wrote: Hi David This discussion has proved my point. That it is not a lack of research that is the primary problem for accessibility for cognitive disabilities, but other factors - such as adoptability, interest "appropriateness" etc.. It is essential that people do not think that following WCAG is the best they can do for these communities. Look at the work of WAACI and http://www.handicom.nl/ and http:// peepo.com/ and ld-web.org. That will help you get an idea of what is doable - today. WCAG does not contain guidelines that will help you achieve this type of accessibility. In terms of commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility - no I do not know of any. There is no legislation to drive them, and the discrimination against these groups are huge. BY the way, the 2001 email was just a sample. I spent years writing and writing test criteria's and guidelines for accessibility for cognitive disabilities. I wrote a CSS techniques, and an RDF techniques document and rewrote the success criteria a bunch of times. We need to view the archives to glean the different approaches and suggestions from over the years, Research existing successes and methodologies, perform a gap analysis etc..... A few sticky plasters is not what is needed. We as standard writers know that. We need a consistent integrated roadmap for access for cognitive disabilities. We have had years to do it but we decided to make it low priority, and these techniques came of the to do list until after last call. We can not now claim that we did the best we could. All the best Lisa -----Original Message----- From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:04 PM To: 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'lisa'; 'j.chetwynd' Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG' Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning, and language disabilities >>> For an example of a government site that is oriented towards people >>> with cognitive disabilities:The Medicaid Reference Desk http://thedesk.info/ A prime feature for a cognitive person would be to be able to ask a question, I would say. But the link to the "ask question" page gives a 404 link error. And it appears to have been like that since 2002. On the home page, the additional info summaries above the link list do not work for keyboard users, only for mouse users. Any page that is accessed from the home page comes up in a tiny window with all the Chrome from the browser. A cognitive person can't find the back button. Having the opened window tiny like that means that there are other visible windows on the computer screen, which would be confusing for many people with cognitive disabilities. David MacDonald access empowers people... ...barriers disable them... www.eramp.com -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Bailey, Bruce Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:56 AM To: David MacDonald; lisa; j.chetwynd Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock; Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer; WCAG Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning, and language disabilities For an example of a government site that is oriented towards people with cognitive disabilities: The Medicaid Reference Desk http:// thedesk.info/ Nancy Ward and Clayton Lewis have been particularly involved with that project. I did not find concept maps however. The claim to Triple A status (with a link to CAST no less) is troubling. P.S.: Follows is a link to the HTML version of the PDF mentioned in Lisa's post from 2001. Telecommunications Problems and Design Strategies for People with Cognitive Disabilities http://www.wid.org/archives/telecom/ > -----Original Message----- > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On > Behalf Of David MacDonald > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:23 AM > To: 'lisa'; '"~:'' ????????????"' > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG' > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning, > and language disabilities > > Hi Lisa > > Can you provide a link to a successfully implemented concept map on a > commercial (or private site)? I would like to see one in use. Thanks. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 7:19 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 7:19 PM
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