- From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:55:28 -0000
- To: "'Montgomery, Gordon'" <Gordon.Montgomery@Staples.com>
- Cc: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
-----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Montgomery, Gordon Sent: 04 December 2003 22:50 To: 'Kerstin Goldsmith'; Craddock, Michael P Cc: Yvette P. Hoitink; Doyle Burnett; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org Subject: RE: Examples of language changes in websites Surely the deciding factors are: 1. context 2. audience Firstly, any ambiguous words should be marked up - not only in the accessibility sense but where those words are not core to the language in question - and for all possible user types. The markup should be: <foreign>...</foreign> or some such meaningful tag. RI >> Actually there is an existing mechanism. Use the lang and/or xml:lang attribute on a tag that surrounds the text. To decide if a word or phase is foreign to the language context it is written in, one criteria would be to see if the author's spell and grammar checker picks it up. That's, of course, if the author does not know themselves that the word is "foreign" [in the broadest sense of that word]. So: looking at the ambiguity of /résumé/ 1. Context: When a user has their browser set to "french" then all the french words around our "ambiguous" word should guide how a screen reader reads the "ambiguous" word - i.e. as regular french Conversely, "le weekend" is pronounced with French intonation by French people. Where /résumé/ appears in an English language context then by default the local language intonation should apply e.g. English. 2. Audience: When /résumé/ appears in a non-French language context then the audience rule applies. There needs to be not only a language setting but and internationalization setting that says: "pronounce borrowed foreign words with their "native/foreign" or "local" intontation. RI >> Doesn't the local pronunciation come from just not marking this up as a different language? Finally, usually as a block of text is translated from one language to another the foreign/borrowed/ambiguous words remain the same. RI>> I think that is the prerogative of the translator. They may feel it is better to use a completely different solution to get the point across. That is part of the process of translation. This situation is only trumped when the context language is the same as the ambiguous word or there is a more commonly used local word in the context language that better captures the sense of the word for the context audience. [i]US English > [ii]UK English > [iii]French > [iv]German [i] Where is your résumé? [ii] Where is your CV? [iii] Ou est ton curriculum vitae? [missing accents] [iv] Wo ist dein Lebenslauf? Thanks, Gordon --------------------- Gordon Montgomery Usability Manager +508 253 2405 -----Original Message----- From: Kerstin Goldsmith [mailto:kerstin.goldsmith@oracle.com] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:15 PM To: Craddock, Michael P Cc: Yvette P. Hoitink; Doyle Burnett; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org Subject: Re: Examples of language changes in websites I think we need to bring this back out to the question "in question," though - here, we have only solved one small problem. Can we legislate this kind of change? And, if yes, or if no, how do we answer Richard Ishida's question: what constitutes language change that MUST be marked up, and what constitutes language change that SHOULD be marked up, etc. -kerstin Craddock, Michael P wrote: We've run into terminology issues here at Boeing, not as a screen reader problem but as a usability issue, and have recently switched from "sitemap" (one word, which is common) to "text index" which we found more commonly used and descriptive. Maybe this small change could help? Thank you, michaelcraddock The Boeing Company multimediadesignengineer p 312.544.2931 | c 312.371.8134 | f 312.544.2082 | w www.boeing.com/ "doog si efil"-mirror me -----Original Message----- From: Yvette P. Hoitink [mailto:y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 1:23 PM To: 'Doyle Burnett'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org Subject: RE: Examples of language changes in websites In Dutch, the word 'sitemap' (one word) is used a lot. This is yet another example of the Dutch habit of glueing words together, which is gramatically correct in Dutch. This is so normal for me I didn't even recognize this as not being entirely English... Dutchmen pronounce 'sitemap' with the English pronounciation. It is not (yet) in the Dutch standard wordlist. Just like the word 'cadeaushoppen', this is another example of a word whose language cannot be identified within the current HTML standards since it's neither Dutch nor English. Yvette Hoitink CEO Heritas, Enschede, The Netherlands E-mail: y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Doyle Burnett Sent: donderdag 4 december 2003 20:00 I believe the term is site map (two words) and yes, if written as a single word, sitemap - screen readers will not pronounce the word as would be desired. Doyle On 12/4/03 8:17 AM, "Kynn Bartlett" <kynn@idyllmtn.com> wrote: On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Ineke van der Maat wrote: Sitemap is not an official word in German or Dutch and can be pronounced by screenreaders in Dutch as sietemap (ie as ea in sea ,just like bietensap or fietstas). English screenreaders sometimes have said "sigh tuh map", for this word, rather than "site map". --Kynn
Received on Friday, 5 December 2003 04:57:48 UTC