W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > April to June 2003

Re: [166] Organize documents so they may be read without style ?sheets

From: Jonathan O'Donnell <jonathan.odonnell@ngv.vic.gov.au>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:15:04 +1000
To: WAI <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: Joe Clark <joeclark@joeclark.org>, Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Message-ID: <BB1E8BF8.34CE%jonathan.odonnell@ngv.vic.gov.au>

Hello Joe, Charles and others

** Examples **

Here are some examples of documents that differ when rendered without a
style sheet (or with a browser's default style sheet).  I hope that this
helps to clarify the discussion.

Alis Technologies, Inc.
Drop down lists don't correspond anymore.  eg "Languages" is no longer
associated with the languages choices.

Autonomy, Incorporated
A large amount of additional text information appears in the non-CSS
version.  This actually seems to be a good thing, in this case.

Avaya Communications
Drop down lists don't correspond at third level.  Eg "Avaya Global Services"
is no longer related to the list of Avanya Global Services.
BEA Systems, Inc.
Drop down list: all list items are repeated, and are turned into text.
BitFlash Graphics, Inc.
Additional text at the end of the page.  Looks like a menu list.

Additional text at the end of the page.  Looks like a menu list.

** Methodology **

Examples are drawn from the A's and B's of the W3C member's list.

I displayed each example in Safari (with style sheet enabled) and in
Internet Explorer (with style sheet turned off).  I noted where there was a
semantic difference between the two.

At the same time as sending this e-mail, I sent a note to the Web master of
each example to let them know about this debate.  They may gain from the
discussion (and it seemed like the polite thing to do).

Jonathan O'Donnell
04 2575 5829

On 23/06/2003 2:19 AM, Joe Clark at joeclark@joeclark.org wrote:

> To combine two messages here:
>>> Some standards-compliant methods of displaying images purely using
>>> CSS would be disallowed by a surface reading of the paragraph
>>> quoted above.
>> Yes. There are ways that comply with the specifications of CSS and
>> HTML of including content that I would argue should not be used, for
>> accessibility reasons.
> Examples found in real-world sites, please? (Examples *plural*.)
>> Disagree that this is relevant to whether the HTML is valid or not.
>> Disagree that this is a hypothetical problem (although it surprises
>> me that it isn't).
> Nobody has been able to provide real-world counterexamples.
Rest deleted for brevity.
Received on Tuesday, 24 June 2003 19:06:09 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thursday, 24 March 2022 21:07:30 UTC