Re: w3c mailing list problems

Actually the system team (more specifically Jose Kahan) has this as a work
item, and has worked some with Wendy and I to try and resolve the best
solution.

More work is in the offing, but it is a non-trivial task,
unfortunately. Which means it won't be done at the drop of a hat.

cheers

Charles McCN

On Wed, 3 May 2000, Daniel Dardailler wrote:

  
  I just asked our systeam to work on it...
  
  
  > aloha, y'all!
  > 
  > Len asked,
  > 
  > quote:
  > Gregory,
  > Would you elaborate on the problems you found with the w3c mail list 
  > archives (a system called Hypermess,  described at 
  > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/AboutArchives.html )
  > unquote
  > 
  > below is a copy of a post i sent to the WAI-IG list at the beginning of 
  > this year -- it is archived at:
  > <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2000JanMar/0038.html>
  > from which trails a thread which ER list members may find 
  > interesting/germane...
  > 
  > i volunteered to work with the W3C systems team to rectify the problems 
  > outlined below (and even included a few immediate/quick fixes), but nothing 
  > has yet come of the attempt to make the W3C mail archives (not to mention 
  > the Webmaster FAQ) more accessible, due, in no small part, to the usual 
  > logistical problems--too many problems, too few people to work on 
  > them--although i wasn't the only one (as al and charles can attest) who 
  > volunteered to work on developing and implementing a solution...
  > 
  > i still believe it imperative that some concrete action taken on the issue 
  > of the main interface to the W3C mail archives, as the mail archive entry 
  > points not only fail to implement--to the fullest extent possible--the Web 
  > Content Accessibility Guidelines, but are, in my opinion, an embarrassment 
  > to the W3C as a whole...
  > 
  > gregory
  > 
  > --- FORWARDED MESSAGE ---
  > Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:24:15 -0500
  > To: Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
  > From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <unagi69@concentric.net>
  > Cc: WAI Education & Outreach Working Group <w3c-wai-eo@w3.org>,
  >          WAI Interest Group Emailing List <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, webmaster@w3.org
  > Subject: new mail archives format (was Re: EOWG Agenda, Jan 7, 2000)
  > 
  > aloha, judy!
  > 
  > in the agenda announcement for the 7 january 2000 EO telecon, you wrote:
  > 
  > quote
  > Remember you can always check the EOWG archives, at
  >          <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/>;
  > try out the new archive format.
  > unquote
  > 
  > to which i reply that i really dislike the new format, as it makes it
  > impossible for anyone using speech output alone to navigate the archive via
  > a list of links, as there is no means of differentiating between the
  > boilerplate hyperlink text for "date", "thread", "author", and "subject"...
  >   there are currently nine hyperlinks with the hyperlink text "date", nine
  > with the hyperlink text "thread", nine with the hyperlink text "author",
  > and nine with the hyperlink text "subject" listed in a list of links for
  > the EO mail archive -- how am i to differentiate between them?
  > 
  > i vastly preferred the old introductory format, where i could make sense of
  > the archive divisions, such as:
  > 
  > Since January 2000
  > October to December 1999
  > July to September 1999
  > 
  > when navigating via a list of links, and _then_ choose to have the messages
  > listed by date, thread, author, or subject...
  > 
  > would it be possible to have both interfaces available?  would it also be
  > possible to add semantic information to the boilerplate hyperlink text via
  > the use of the TITLE attribute, so that rather than being encoded as:
  > 
  > <a href="1999OctDec/">date</a>
  > <a href="1999OctDec/thread.html">thread</a>
  > <a href="1999OctDec/author.html">author</a>
  > <a href="1999OctDec/subject.html">subject</a>
  > 
  > the link would be encoded thus:
  > 
  > <a href="1999OctDec/"
  >          title="Messages from October to December 1999 sorted by date"
  >          >date</a>
  > <a href="1999OctDec/thread.html"
  >          title="Messages from October to December 1999 sorted by thread"
  >          >thread</a>
  > <a href="1999OctDec/author.html"
  >          title="Messages from October to December 1999 sorted by author"
  >          >author</a>
  > <a href="1999OctDec/subject.html"
  >          title="Messages from October to December 1999 sorted by subject"
  >          >subject</a>
  > 
  > implementation of the latter suggestion would (to a certain extent) reduce
  > the need for offering an alternative view -- read: providing the option to
  > view the archive using the old interface -- provided, of course, that one's
  > UA and/or AT is capable of exposing to the user titles that have been
  > defined for hyperlinks, either through a list of links or -- ideally, and
  > -- by serial navigation (i.e. tabbing from link to link)...
  > 
  > in any event, this touches on one of my personal crusades -- the attempt to
  > get page authors to use semantically sensible -- and, wherever possible,
  > unique -- hyperlink text for every hyperlink on a page...  by semantically
  > sensible, i mean hyperlink text which does NOT rely on surrounding
  > contextual information ...
  > 
  > additionally, i'm troubled by the fact that, by violating WCAG Checkpoint
  > 13.1, which states,
  > 
  > quote
  > 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2]
  > Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of
  > context -- either on its own or as part of a sequence of links. Link text
  > should also be terse. For example, in HTML, write "Information about
  > version 4.3" instead of "click here". In addition to clear link text,
  > content developers may further clarify the target of a link with an
  > informative link title (e.g., in HTML, the "title" attribute).
  > unquote
  > 
  > the new archive format could only obtain a Single-A conformance rating, and
  > i think it behooves W3C space to be (at least) Double-A compliant...
  > 
  > which, brings me to the Webmaster FAQ, located at:
  >          <http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/FAQ.pl>
  > 
  > this page is an accessibility nightmare, for when it is navigated via the
  > keyboard using speech (JFW 3.5, to be precise), all that is echoed is:
  > 
  > "W3C Homepage visited link"
  > "FAQ link"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > "Display button"
  > 
  > (note: only the first 2 items listed above appear in a list of links for
  > the page)
  > 
  > since the forms that drive the FAQ page are embedded within a TABLE, one
  > cannot even obtain surrounding contextual information by using the "speak
  > entire line" screen-review command...  moving the display button cell from
  > the first item in the row to the last helps somewhat -- at least, when
  > using JFW 3.5 -- making it possible to use the "speak from left margin to
  > cursor" screen-review command to obtain the contextual information to
  > associate with the button, but that is far from an obvious solution for
  > anyone who is simply trying to use the page to report a problem...
  > 
  > all that being said, i DO like the addition of the search form to the mail
  > archive!
  > 
  > gregory.
  

--
Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053
Postal: GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne 3001,  Australia

Received on Tuesday, 9 May 2000 17:32:15 UTC