Re: Request for Review

  > We would really like to know about
 > the accesibility of the templates,

As for the accessibility of the template...

http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/WD-ATAG10-TECHS-20000308/templates/cmnMain

Unfortunately, it's actually less accessible than the table version, at 
least with Netscape 4.7.

That's because when you increase the font size (e.g. in NN 4.7 
with  control - right square bracket) the text from the left and right 
regions overlap each other, making reading difficult or impossible.

On the other hand, with a table version, the text wraps in each region so 
it stays readable up to larger font magnification.  At larger 
magnification, when there's no more word boundaries to wrap on,  the table 
expands so that you can still read it by scrolling horizontally.

So for people with low vision, it's not as good as a table.

Is it possible to add the table features to the example, at least in 
principle?  Also, what's the state of how they're supported?

Len


At 02:02 AM 3/13/00 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>Er,
>
>yes, until tools are developed that work properly we risk backlash. And we
>should be careful to specify what we know about things that work and
>don't, and what sort of differences we can expect. But if the alternative is
>table-based layout, we already know what we can expect - that it doesn't cope
>well with different-sized displays, and often doesn't work at all.
>
>Things looking wildly different (as the template example can) is not
>necessarily a huge problem. Part of the point is that on the Web things _DO_
>look wildly different. Mobile phones have little black na white displays. THe
>machine I am using has an 800x600 256 colour display. The other machine I use
>comonly has a 1600x1200 display and can render (I believe) several million
>different colours. And the browser I use most doesn't even show the images in
>the same window. That is an important feature of the web. People can also get
>upset that the tide is coming in, but they don't really have any way to do a
>lot about it. (Some Danish king of England demonstrated this to his council
>once as a rebuke to their idiotic suggestion that he was all-powerful). We
>should make it clear to people that one of the features of the _entire_
>medium is that it does not provide for visually faithful reproduction in most
>circumstances (although the differences are fairly predictable) becuase this
>will make the fact that people can restyle their content quite radically in
>order to use it better an easier pill to swallow.
>
>Sorry if this seems like a rant. Note that there is only one template
>currently being reviewed, and we expect to produce others which will
>themselves probably be wildly different. We would really like to know about
>the accesibility of the templates, although the feedback on exaplinaing how
>to use them and how they will behave is helpful.
>
>Cheers
>
>Charles McCN
>
>
>On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
>
>   It's not just that the styling gets lost for people that don't have CSS
>   enabled.  It's that even with CSS enabled, CSS pages can look wildly
>   different in current browsers... at least that's my experience trying to
>   use CSS, and getting quite different results among NN 4, MSIE 5 and MSIE 5.
>
>   So even if we present templates that have only minor bugs, we wind up
>   telling the developers that they have to follow these templates exactly or
>   they could run into trouble.  Or if we don't tell them and they run into
>   these problems, we risk backlash.
>
>   I think CSS is find for font and character size, but beyond that we should
>   focus on other issues.
>
>   Len
>
>
>   At 06:02 AM 3/11/00 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>   >It does.
>   >
>   >It is in fact based on a commercial website. The marketing people were
>   >perfectly happy that people who did not have CSS enabled saw a different
>   >view.
>   >
>   >We are not demanding anything. We are suggesting this as a possible 
> template
>   >that can be used in an authoring tool.
>   >
>   >The question then is whether this particular style sheet prodces any 
> bugs (I
>   >am aware of one minor problem - MSIE 4 does not seem to support
>   >display:block, so the links in the nav bar are not presented one per 
> line as
>   >they are in Netscape 4.
>   >
>   >Charles McCN
>   >
>   >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
>   >
>   >   Re
>   >
>   >   http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/WD-ATAG10-TECHS-20000308/templates/cmnMain 
> - A
>   > "home
>   >   page"
>   >
>   >   It uses style sheets for layout and background colors, which means that
>   >   browsers that don't support these features see a radically different
>   >   looking page.
>   >
>   >   Plus in general there are still bugs in CSS layout even on browsers 
> that
>   >   support them.
>   >
>   >   So we could get some understandable resistance from tool makers to 
> seem to
>   >   demand only CSS layout.
>   >
>   >   Len
>   >   -------
>   >   Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>   >   Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>   >   Department of Electrical Engineering
>   >   Temple University
>   >   423 Ritter Annex, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>   >
>   >   kasday@acm.org
>   >   http://astro.temple.edu/~kasday
>   >
>   >   (215) 204-2247 (voice)
>   >   (800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>   >
>   >
>   >--
>   >Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 
> 134 136
>   >W3C Web Accessibility 
> Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
>   >Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053
>   >Postal: GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne 3001,  Australia
>
>   -------
>   Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>   Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>   Department of Electrical Engineering
>   Temple University
>   423 Ritter Annex, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>
>   kasday@acm.org
>   http://astro.temple.edu/~kasday
>
>   (215) 204-2247 (voice)
>   (800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>
>
>--
>Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134 136
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
>Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053
>Postal: GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne 3001,  Australia

-------
Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
Department of Electrical Engineering
Temple University
423 Ritter Annex, Philadelphia, PA 19122

kasday@acm.org
http://astro.temple.edu/~kasday

(215) 204-2247 (voice)
(800) 750-7428 (TTY)

Received on Monday, 13 March 2000 11:34:48 UTC