- From: David Wall <dwall@Yozons.com>
- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:52:51 -0800
- To: "Rich Salz" <rsalz@datapower.com>
- Cc: <w3c-ietf-xmldsig@w3.org>
> Personally, I've given up worrying about impossibilities like digital > non-repudiation. Since a scrawl on a faxed letterhead can be a binding > contract, in case of dispute it can always come down to human intent. I agree and anybody who relies on a signature to mean all's okay without having sufficient business processes to back it up will be defrauded. You more for wet signatures and electronic ones. Ask any bank how many bad checks are written with obviously bogus signatures? Ask them how many checks or credit card slip signatures are ever validated. What wet signature bureau do you go to in order to validate a signed piece of paper? The answer of "zero" will likely shock some people, and when fraud is detected, it's rarely prosecuted because the "business costs" are too high to weed out identity fraud in the paper world. I was mostly interested in hearing what people thought of this automated digital signature validation system of XML Signature, yet understanding what has been signed seems to still rely on human understanding and won't be easily automated. My gut tells me that XML Signature is really best suited for those automated transactions in which there is a well defined "contract" defined by the XML (via XML Schema, no doubt) with well known parties sending the transactions. For example, an order entry system that generates fixed transations within a group of customers/suppliers/manufacturers. This became obvious to me because my company already offers an electronic signature product based on digital signatures, and we store our data in an open XML format when the signed data is exported from our system (otherwise it's stored encrypted in a database). When looking into converting to XML Signature, we had to completely revise our signature scheme since XML Signature is quite different from what we do (for example, we digitially sign the actual data, rather than digitally sign a hash of the actual data). But when we analyzed the "code benefit" of XML Signature, we couldn't find any. Using the Java JCE for encryption, our code that calculates a digital signature over the data and metadata being signed was basically 16 lines of code, most trivial calls like "sig.update(dataElement);" -- hashing in the data. The coding savings of using XML Sigature to calculate/verify the signature was minor, yet the cost overhead of transforming the data into XML and the having it go through the parser is substantially greater. Our throughput has gone way down, and yet there is ZERO perceivable benefit for our customers since they still rely on our application to present the contracts, apply the signatures, revalidate signatures (automatically each time they are presented with the contract), and look at the detailed information held about the signature and the signer. Anyway, I guess my question was a bit off base in that I was asking if it made sense as an electronic signature standard when I really was trying to see if people thought XML Signature was best used for all electronic signature applications or just those that can be fully automated. In our world, a contract is generally in a Word/PDF document, so having an automated digitial signature verification scheme seems to offer very little as a human must analyze the contract, and our application already did the digitial signature processing for them. Presumably, the benefit is such signed data should be verifiable using other people's tools easily, but again, doing the digital signature verification is only a small step in validating a signed contract is appropriate and legally sound (for example, if the data is a "last will & testament," then it's not legal in the U.S. because the E-Sign Act does not allow such things to be e-signed). David Wall
Received on Saturday, 14 December 2002 16:51:55 UTC