W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-dist-auth@w3.org > April to June 2001

RE: Status code for creating lock-null resource

From: Clemm, Geoff <gclemm@rational.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:59:24 -0400
Message-ID: <3906C56A7BD1F54593344C05BD1374B103770D0C@SUS-MA1IT01>
To: w3c-dist-auth@w3.org
I think the only thing that currently separates what Dan and I
prefer is the "explicit initial resource creation".  So at the
risk of being repetitive, I'll try to give a detailed response
to Dan's message on this issue.

   From: Dan Brotsky [mailto:dbrotsky@Adobe.COM]

   At 11:00 PM -0400 6/27/01, Clemm, Geoff wrote:
   >    From: Dan Brotsky [mailto:dbrotsky@Adobe.COM]
   >    ... it doesn't allow users to
   >    simultaneously create and LOCK resources for further editing, which
   >    bothers me.
   >Could you expand on why this bothers you?

   There are actually three reasons:

   1. Because it sets you up for ambiguity and race conditions by 
   breaking a single user-conceptual operation (beginning to edit a new 
   resource) into two protocol operations (PUT and LOCK).

The conceptual operation is probably "get me the locked
content and properties of this resource so I can edit them".
This will be at least 3 client requests (LOCK, GET, PROPFIND),
so making it be 4 client requests (PUT, LOCK, GET, PROPFIND) is
not qualitatively different.

   A client that 
   wants to create and edit a new resource will go through a 
   conventional sequence such as HEAD (to verify the URL as unmapped), 
   PUT (to create the resource), and LOCK (to reserve the resource for 

No need for the HEAD/PUT ... just the PUT/If-None-Match:* is sufficient.

   This conflicts not only with itself but with the conventional
   sequence for editing an existing resource is LOCK / GET (LOCK first
   to make sure the GET content is the latest content).

I don't see that prefixing the LOCK/GET with a PUT/If-None-Match:*
would conflict with anything.

   This gives rise to two canonical problem cases:

   a. If I'm creating and editing a new resource, and you are editing a 
   resource but specify my name by mistake, then my client has to deal 
   with the unexpected (and meaningless at the user level) case where I 
   successfully create the resource but then can't edit it, and your 
   client has to deal with the unexpected (and meaningless at the user 
   level) case where you open a resource to edit it only to find that 
   it's empty or doesn't contain anything like what I was expecting.

The user does not see any of this.  Your client just issues an initial
PUT/If-None-Match:*, and then ignores the result (your client doesn't
care if it ended up creating an empty resource with this request or
not ...  it just wants to make sure it can lock that URL).  From the
user's perspective, it either succeeds, and you have the lock, or it
fails because somebody else has that URL locked (and it doesn't really
matter to the client that the LOCK by that other client was done weeks
ago, or was done a millesecond ago).

   b. If we're both trying to create and edit the same (new) resource, 
   and my PUT precedes yours but my LOCK follows yours, then once I've 
   obtained the LOCK I find that the etag on the resource is different 
   than the one I got back from my PUT.

You don't care at all what the response from the PUT/If-None-Match:*
request was.  You only care what the response is from the LOCK request.

   This is the canonical 
   client-side warning sign that I'm in a race with someone else, and I 
   have to stop and make sure that I pull down the current content.

No race condition here because you don't pull down the current content
until you have the lock.

   that point, unless you and I were using the same "template" resource 
   in our initial PUTs, I've got a real problem.  I either have to blow 
   away your edit (which I'm not entitled to do under normal 
   circumstances) or I need to give up my lock.

You have exactly the same failure case if your lock succeeds and there
already was a resource there.  It doesn't matter if the resource got
there a millisecond ago or a few weeks ago.

   But by then your LOCK 
   has failed, so you've figured out that someone else is creating the 
   resource and you've given up.

You don't care that someone else is creating the resource ... you only
whether someone else has that resource locked.

   2. Because there's no well-defined way for PUT to reliably create a 
   no-content resource, which is the kind I claim you want to be 
   creating when you're creating a new one but don't have content for it 
   yet.  Most servers given a PUT of 0 length create a 0-length 
   resource, which is quite a different thing than a no-content one.

If a no-content resource can morph into any kind of resource, then
it is difficult to implement (most repositories have no such resource).
If it cannot morph into any kind of resource, then I do not see
an important reason to distinguish a new no-content resource from
a new 0-length resource.

   3. Because doing a PUT and then a LOCK and then (eventually) another 
   PUT forces you to make *two* updates to the resource rather than one, 
   and the controlling server may not actually want to authorize that. 
   (For example, workflow servers often want to send things off for 
   approval, etc., each time they are updated.)

How can something be sent off for approval unless there is a way
for me to store what I want on the server so that it can be approved?

   So let me ask you the converse question: You seem to be worried by
   the fact that we don't know what kind of resource (collection or
   not) the new resource is going to be.  What's the problem with
   letting the new resource start out as a no-content non-collection
   and then be made into a collection?

None of my repositories have a resource that has that behavior.
This means that I have to figure out a way to simulate such a
resource, and have to make sure that the locking semantics is
satisfied by all the other protocols that I currently implement
on my repository.  It is very likely that we would make the same
choice made by most servers today wrt LNR's, namely simply be
non-compliant with the protocol unless a compelling use case
motivated us making this fairly major effort.

   Note that in both of our proposals the same requests are 
   made---either a PUT or a MKCOL and a LOCK.  It's just that in my 
   version the LOCK comes first (a la the LOCK / GET sequence that 
   initiates an edit).  And in my version the client doesn't have to 
   figure out whether the resource exists before initiating the 
   sequence: all edits (of both existing and new resources) start out 
   with a LOCK / GET, and in the case of the create the LOCK comes back 
   with a 201 which tells the client that the GET would return a 204 
   (and thus there's no reason to issue it).

I agree that your proposal would allow the client to omit the
initial PUT/If-None-Match:*, but adding that call in our clients
is trivial compared to the cost of implementing resources that
are locked but can morph to any resource type when first updated.

Received on Friday, 29 June 2001 10:52:59 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Friday, 17 January 2020 20:01:23 UTC