- From: Hugh Glaser <hugh@glasers.org>
- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:55:18 +0100
- To: Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org>
- Cc: Semantic Web <semantic-web@w3.org>
Thanks ever so much, Phil, all very helpful.
Now I can spend a happy few hours burrowing away.
All strength to your arm, however you aim to achieve your important goal, although I think I have little to offer.
Cheers
Hugh
PS
I have always looked at barcodes with awe, ever since pretty much my first computing job to write a barcode reader (in 8080 machine code for UPC, Codabar and Code 39, IIRC) using a primitive HP light pen in the summer of 1976 (I think).
Their utility, and the speed with which they became a worldwide standard, and their ubiquity, can only be dreamt of by LD and related people promoting URIs, but should still be an objective to emulate.
Like intermodal containers too.
> On 17 Jul 2024, at 12:24, Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Hugh,
>
> A full answer to your questions would take a long email but let me point to a few resources.
>
> A talk I did for an IEEE workshop in 2021 is probably the best resource I can point you to as it was delivered to an engineering audience. See https://philarcher.org/diary/2021/ieee/
>
> Other stuff:
> https://youtu.be/g7gqB459KWg is a general-purpose video about the move to 2D barcodes and the GS1 Digital Link URI syntax that can encode our identifiers.
>
> I can't prove this - we don't have the data - but we believe there are around 20 million products IRL with a GS1 Digital Link QR Code (our marketing term is "QR Codes powered by GS1"). The first one I bought is documented at https://philarcher.org/diary/2023/my-first-dl/ But please don't go sticking random GTINs on the end of id.gs1.org/01/ - the number of links available there today is as close to zero as makes no difference. They're coming, but we're not there yet.
>
> Oh and schema.org now has a specific property for all this: https://schema.org/hasGS1DigitalLink
>
> Other explanatory docs are at
> https://ref.gs1.org/docs/2023/QR-Code_powered-by-GS1-best-practices
> https://ref.gs1.org/docs/2024/digital-link-quick-start-guide
> https://ref.gs1.org/docs/2024/connecting-barcodes-to-related-information
>
> Would be happy, of course, to follow up with a conversation and chew the cud with you on this. I am acutely aware that we're sailing close to the wind on some Web fundamentals but the aim is essentially a node on the Linked Open Data graph with "barcodes" (GTINs) expressed as URIs as the starting point.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil
>
> ---
>
> Phil Archer
> Web Solutions Director, GS1
> https://www.gs1.org
>
> https://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> @philarcher1
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugh Glaser <hugh@glasers.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 11:25 AM
> To: Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org>
> Cc: Semantic Web <semantic-web@w3.org>
> Subject: GS1 Questions (was "Moving a namespace")
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> It was interesting how quickly we seemed to set off down the HTTP Range 14 rabbit hole, with someone who was there pretty much at the inception.
> It's easy to see how things do get conflated, though.
>
> I confess to being ignorant of the GS1 work, and I am guessing shouldn't be, so your post had a useful side effect for me.
> However, looking at quite a few pages, I am still not very clear on it all, and what it might mean to me (as a Linked Data provider), if anything.
>
> For example, CDs.
> In the past, on the LD HTML pages (and in the RDF), I have used self-generated images of barcodes, as well as links to Amazon and Wikidata pages, to help visitors identify and find the artefact. (And of course MusicBrainz, Discogs, etc. pages)
>
> Should I use GS1 (specifically GTIN?) for this, and if so how?
>
> Also, I currently need audience members (IRL) to access (non-LD) web pages on their mobile devices.
> To do this, we print self-generated QR codes in the programmes, etc, and put the QR codes on publicity web pages too.
> Is GS1 relevant to me here because there is some better process we should be using?
>
> (I am a fan of QR codes on web pages, both for URIs, and also things like vCard and ICS) - it is surprising how often it is just easier to point your phone camera at something, even with Apple continuity.)
>
> I don't know whether those questions even make sense in the context of GS1 :-)
>
> The documents, being standards, of course are aimed at manufacturers and their ilk, I think.
> Is there a summary at my sort of level that I could quickly get such overview information, perhaps a cheat sheet, or even an FAQ?
> And I still haven't found any proper examples (not example.com <http://example.com/>) in the wild, BTW.
> Maybe the FAQ would say I shouldn't bother to read it!
>
> I'll leave those ramblings with you to respond (or not) as you think fit, or just with a link to a page I have missed.
>
> Very best
> Hugh
>
>> On 17 Jul 2024, at 09:35, Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org> wrote:
>>
>> Whoa, hang on... I'm very grateful for the feedback, thank you, and we'll be acting on it. But this is in danger of becoming yet another re-run of the HTTP Range 14 perma-discussion.
>>
>> I am well-aware of all those arguments and have no desire to extend
>> that discussion. As Sandro Hawke said *21* years ago "This is an old
>> issue, and people are tired of it."
>> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HttpRange14Webography
>>
>> I'm talking here about the GS1 Web Vocabulary. That's our (now growing) vocabulary for describing products and more. Originally cast as an extension to schema.org, it takes the terms used by the retail industry and models them in the schema.org way. That's what we're moving from one namespace to another due to operational details that I won't waste the list's time on.
>>
>> Where I think the confusion might arise is in our other work that you may have heard of. The GS1 Web Vocabulary is separate from our work on GS1 Digital Link URI syntax [1] which is where the HTTP Range 14 stuff comes in. Those URIs, the simplest and most common example of which is https://example.com/01/09506000134352, *do* identify the physical thing. Encoded in QR Codes and Data Matrix Codes, that syntax is beginning to complement and will one day likely supersede the familiar 1D barcode. That where the "you can't dereference a URI for a non-information resource over the internet" arguments apply. In the world of supply chains and retail stores, it won't surprise you that no one cares about that even a little bit and so I have to make the argument for the importance of redirection from another angle as well (https://ref.gs1.org/guidelines/2d-in-retail/#redirection). The end result is the same - we strongly advise (cannot enforce) that those URIs should redirect. I did consider saying that the relevant code should be 303 but I admit that I have chickened out and either remained silent or gone with the soft option of 307. I know, I know it's semantically incorrect. But it’s also practical and achievable. It's hard enough to persuade millions of manufacturers and retailers to change their barcodes as it is without adding what would be seen as extra and unnecessary nerdiness. And I say that as a professional nerdy pedant!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> [1] https://ref.gs1.org/standards/digital-link/uri-syntax/
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Phil Archer
>> Web Solutions Director, GS1
>> https://www.gs1.org
>>
>> https://philarcher.org
>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>> @philarcher1
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joris Lemay – eHealtho <joris.lemay@ehealtho.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 8:47 AM
>> To: Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org>
>> Cc: Cord Wiljes <Cord.Wiljes@nfdi.de>; Semantic Web
>> <semantic-web@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re: Moving a namespace
>>
>> Dear Phil,
>>
>> FYI, 303 like Cord stated, also documented in other terminologies; The URI space defined in this document uses the syntax defined in _IETF RFC6570 URI Templates1 <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction#Footnote1> . In addition, principals of good URI design were drawn from the W3C document _Cool URIs for the Semantic Web2 <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction#Footnote2> , and _Designing URI Sets for the UK Public Sector3 <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction#Footnote3> .
>> It should be further noted that, consistent with the advice of Tim Berners-Lee4 <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction#Footnote4> , the http scheme is used for these URIs. Furthermore, to be consistent with the W3C's TAG resolution of ISSUE-145 <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction#Footnote5> , since the URIs defined in this document identify _real-world objects and not information resources, resolving these URIs should not result in an HTTP response code of 200 ("OK") but rather, if anything at all, result in an HTTP response code of 303 ("See Other") to redirect to another URI that identifies a representation of the identified component. The intuition here is that it is not possible to return a real-world object (e.g. "The Eiffel Tower"), but only a representation of it (a picture, a geo-location, a Wikipedia page, etc.). In the same manner, it is only possible to return a representation of the identified SNOMED CT component, and not the component itself. Further discussion around this issue can be found in Section 4.4 Choosing between 202 and Hash6 <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction#Footnote6> of the aforementioned W3C document _Cool URIs for the Semantic Web.
>> source:
>> https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction
>> <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/1+Introduction>
>> An nice reference of a mature multi-lingual healthcare terminology is SNOMED CT.
>> Many aspect could be of inspiration for GS1 (Terminology service,
>> versioning, local extending, querying... of course it's overloaded by
>> now)
>>
>> SNOMED CT URI Standard
>> <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCURI/URI+Standard?src=si
>> debar> SNOMED CT URI Standard - URIs
>> <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/SLPG/SNOMED+CT+URI+Standar
>> d> Extensions Practical Guide
>> <https://confluence.ihtsdotools.org/display/DOCEXTPG/Extensions+Practi
>> cal+Guide> SNOMED International SNOMED CT Browser
>> <https://browser.ihtsdotools.org/?>
>> ...
>>
>> Enjoy.
>> Joris Lemay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Cord Wiljes
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 17:22
>> To: Phil Archer; Semantic Web
>> Subject: AW: Moving a namespace
>>
>> Dear Phil,
>>
>> yes 303. The reasoning behind this is: The URI denotes the beverage, and a beverage cannot be dereferenced, because it cannot be delivered via the internet. Therefore, if someone types the URI in a browser, a 303 ("See Other") is returned that refers to the URL of a HTML page that contains information about beverage. This has several advantages:
>> * A clear distinction between the URI that denotes the entity and the URL that describes the entity.
>> * The URI can remain stable over time, because it is an abstract name, that is not bound to ownership of a domain. The description can be moved flexible to any webserver.
>> * You can do content negotiation, i.e. deliver specific content depending on who is asking. Most importantly: deliver HTML to a human (Browser) and RDF to a machine (crawler).
>>
>> If you are interested, you can find more info here: http://linkeddatabook.com/editions/1.0/#htoc12 <http://linkeddatabook.com/editions/1.0/#htoc12> (from: Tom Heath and Christian Bizer (2011) Linked Data: Evolving the Web into a Global Data Space (1st edition). Synthesis Lectures on the Semantic Web: Theory and Technology, 1:1, 1-136. Morgan & Claypool. https://doi.org/10.2200/S00334ED1V01Y201102WBE001) <https://doi.org/10.2200/S00334ED1V01Y201102WBE001)>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Cord
>>
>> Cord Wiljes
>> Wissenschaftlicher Referent
>>
>> Nationale Forschungsdateninfrastruktur (NFDI) e.V.
>> Albert-Nestler-Str. 13
>> 76131 Karlsruhe
>> Tel. +49 721 988 994 24
>> Mail cord.wiljes@nfdi.de
>> Web www.nfdi.de <http://www.nfdi.de>
>>
>> Impressum & Datenschutz
>> https://www.nfdi.de/impressum-datenschutz/
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org>
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. Juli 2024 16:53
>> An: Cord Wiljes <Cord.Wiljes@nfdi.de>; Semantic Web
>> <semantic-web@w3.org>
>> Betreff: RE: Moving a namespace
>>
>> Oh, interesting, thank you Cord. 303 not 301? It is a permanent move but I see the thinking, yes.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 16, 2024 3:33 PM, Cord Wiljes wrote:
>> Dear Phil,
>>
>> here are my five cents: IMO, using a server-side redirect actually is best practice to solve this. The URI's should be kept stable, though. E.g. https://gs1.org/voc/Beverage <https://gs1.org/voc/Beverage> stays the URI of beverage, but visitors will now be redirected via redirect 303 ("See Other") to http://ref.gs1.org/voc/Beverage <http://ref.gs1.org/voc/Beverage> , i.e. the web page with information about beverage, formerly hosted at https://gs1.org/voc/Beverage<https://gs1.org/voc/Beverage> .
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Cord
>>
>> Cord Wiljes
>> Wissenschaftlicher Referent
>>
>> Nationale Forschungsdateninfrastruktur (NFDI) e.V.
>> Albert-Nestler-Str. 13
>> 76131 Karlsruhe
>> Tel. +49 721 988 994 24
>> Mail cord.wiljes@nfdi.de
>> Web www.nfdi.de <http://www.nfdi.de>
>>
>> Impressum & Datenschutz
>> https://www.nfdi.de/impressum-datenschutz/
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org>
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. Juli 2024 13:04
>> An: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Semantic Web <semantic-web@w3.org>
>> Betreff: RE: Moving a namespace
>>
>> Thanks Melvin,
>>
>> That makes me feel a lot better about just redirecting to the new namespace and switching off the old one without worrying too much.
>>
>> @Danbri - Setting up a specific domain wouldn't obviate the need to
>> redirect from the old one! And ref.gs1.org is our long-term repository
>> for lots of stuff. Heck, it even has a very familiar-looking URI
>> management policy 😊 https://ref.gs1.org/gs1/uri-policy/
>> <https://ref.gs1.org/gs1/uri-policy/>
>>
>> Thanks again
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:51 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>
>>
>> út 16. 7. 2024 v 11:52 odesílatel Phil Archer <phil.archer@gs1.org <mailto:phil.archer@gs1.org> > napsal:
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I need some advice please. We want to move our vocabulary from gs1.org/voc <http://gs1.org/voc> (where it's been since 2014) to ref.gs1.org/voc<http://ref.gs1.org/voc> (where internal policy states it will remain). The question is: is there any reason not to just put in a simple redirect rather than trying, and perhaps failing to set up an alias? The problem is, unless you know better (please!) that an alias, would be established by a CNAME and that would apply to the whole of gs1.org <http://gs1.org> which we absolutely don't want and can't do. We're just talking about everything below gs1.org/voc <http://gs1.org/voc> .
>>
>> So, in short: can we just do a redirect and have done with it?
>>
>>
>>
>> w3id.org <http://w3id.org> uses redirects all the time. Whether or not it's a best practice or even "allowed" I'm not 100% sure. But its a common pattern.
>>
>> Have a look at some of the name spaces there and how the redirects work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Phil Archer
>> Web Solutions Director, GS1
>> https://www.gs1.org <https://www.gs1.org>
>>
>> https://philarcher.org <https://philarcher.org>
>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>> @philarcher1
>>
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>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY / DISCLAIMER: The contents of this e-mail are confidential and are not to be regarded as a contractual offer or acceptance from GS1 (registered in Belgium).
>> If you are not the addressee, or if this has been copied or sent to you in error, you must not use data herein for any purpose, you must delete it, and should inform the sender.
>> GS1 disclaims liability for accuracy or completeness, and opinions expressed are those of the author alone.
>> GS1 may monitor communications.
>> Third party rights acknowledged.
>> (c) 2020.
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY / DISCLAIMER: The contents of this e-mail are confidential and are not to be regarded as a contractual offer or acceptance from GS1 (registered in Belgium).
>> If you are not the addressee, or if this has been copied or sent to you in error, you must not use data herein for any purpose, you must delete it, and should inform the sender.
>> GS1 disclaims liability for accuracy or completeness, and opinions expressed are those of the author alone.
>> GS1 may monitor communications.
>> Third party rights acknowledged.
>> (c) 2020.
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY / DISCLAIMER: The contents of this e-mail are confidential and are not to be regarded as a contractual offer or acceptance from GS1 (registered in Belgium).
>> If you are not the addressee, or if this has been copied or sent to you in error, you must not use data herein for any purpose, you must delete it, and should inform the sender.
>> GS1 disclaims liability for accuracy or completeness, and opinions expressed are those of the author alone.
>> GS1 may monitor communications.
>> Third party rights acknowledged.
>> (c) 2020.
>
>
> --
> Hugh
> +44 7595 334155
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY / DISCLAIMER: The contents of this e-mail are confidential and are not to be regarded as a contractual offer or acceptance from GS1 (registered in Belgium).
> If you are not the addressee, or if this has been copied or sent to you in error, you must not use data herein for any purpose, you must delete it, and should inform the sender.
> GS1 disclaims liability for accuracy or completeness, and opinions expressed are those of the author alone.
> GS1 may monitor communications.
> Third party rights acknowledged.
> (c) 2020.
--
Hugh
+44 7595 334155
Received on Wednesday, 17 July 2024 11:55:47 UTC