Re: Newsletter & Call for Papers WebSci'18

On 22/02/2018 00:31, Tim Thompson wrote:
> I'm new to this discussion, and I'm not sure I understand the problem (or
> the poribkrm for that matter).

poribkrm is gonna be the next meme in Semantic Web circles. Thanks Harry 
for that!


  There are in fact open source efforts to
> address things like LaTeX or MathML rendering in the browser. Here's one:
> The larger problem is complacency--and
> maybe that's why Sarven's critiques make some people uncomfortable. How can
> this community become better at acknowledging and actively supporting those
> who are right now trying to do the work of transforming scholarly
> discourse?
> Just two more cents,
> Tim
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Harry Halpin <> wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 7:25 PM Axel Polleres <> wrote:
>>> Except you miss that Sarven is one of the few people who does put some
>>> real work into making HTML publishing possible, I would like to add in his
>>> defence (which is also why I do respect his strategy ;-))
>> I disagree. We did HTML publishing in Web conference series and it barely
>> worked due to MathML/Latex problem. Dokeli does not address and Sarven
>> doesn’t even seem to understand problem, as he conflated the requirements
>> of publishing a blog post with scientific papers. Latex is still far
>> superior. When he or anyone comes back with something up to par with Latex
>> for math, then I will take him seriously. Otherwise it’s basically spam for
>> a project that doesn’t work yet, even if it’s well-intended spam.
>> I would suggest rather than spamming this list, Sarven work on something
>> that really solves the problem (i.e. spend some time converting real papers
>> and datasets over to a web-friendly form) to understand the poribkrm -  and
>> THEN advertises it rather than being a second-rate ideologue
>>> just my two cents,
>>> Axel
>>> On 21.02.2018, at 09:57, Harry Halpin <> wrote:
>>> As I have pointed out many times, lack of LaTeX support for math makes
>>> HTML publishing for scientific papers a non-starter, and people who do not
>>> believe this is a problem must either not publish much or not publish
>>> papers with math. Right now cutting-edge is Tex2Html that hasn’t really
>>> been updated in 10 years. MathML is trying to force a dead XML paradigm and
>>> has little browser support. So I basically consider it a solvable problem
>>> that requires real work, but until I see real work I consider Sarven’s
>>> posts to basically be pointless spam and borderline trolling.
>>> Since I have no desire to see spam in my inbox, I will unsubscribe from
>>> this mailing list quite shortly likely.
>>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:37 AM Sarven Capadisli <>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Hugh, and everyone.
>>>> This is a great query, which I'd like to address:
>>>> On 2018-02-21 11:25, Hugh Glaser wrote:
>>>>> I am not sure what a public response of this sort to the CFP achieves
>>>> (rather than a private message to the CFP poster), other than an attempt to
>>>> publicly shame, which doesn't seem appropriate on the Semantic Web mailing
>>>> list.
>>>> The real target of these messages is not you, me, or even the seniors,
>>>> professors, directors, conference organisers, programme committees, and
>>>> so on.
>>>> This is for the *next generation* of researchers and developers who are
>>>> following along or will hopefully read this up one day. They are the
>>>> ones who will be the change. We are only setting the stage for them to
>>>> follow through.
>>>> Of course I do hope that these ideas and the problems we are dealing
>>>> with resonate with more people. Hence, a plea for the "seniors" to
>>>> permit their "junior" colleagues to push forward. To grow their team
>>>> with a different set of ideals and awareness! Many already have for a
>>>> long time, and many are making that shift.
>>>> Neither do I actually expect these conferences/journals that have kept
>>>> their approach for so long to change overnight. As long as researchers
>>>> are constrained in how they communicate their knowledge, and how that
>>>> knowledge can be disseminated, no amount of activism here or elsewhere
>>>> will change that.
>>>> The purpose of these threads is purely about creating awareness and
>>>> building a mental infrastructure.
>>>> One by-product of all these conversations is the archival and
>>>> documentation of the state of affairs. The mere existence of this thread
>>>> shows that we are talking about this stuff, some of us are still
>>>> concerned about it, some of us are making our little contributions to
>>>> improve things.
>>>> I'm thankful for this community and the feedback that I've received. It
>>>> has indeed help me immensely - in more ways than I can express here - to
>>>> mature my ideas and join them with the others, as well as the support to
>>>> continue to pursue my principles. The evolution of these mailing list
>>>> threads serve as documentation and evaluation. It is not unique to this
>>>> mailing list; it has been going on over countless mailing lists over
>>>> several decades. If the ideas at their core are not sound, that would've
>>>> been clear by now.
>>>> And regarding the repetitiveness of my responses to CfPs over the years.
>>>> This is true. I like to keep these issues in peoples' consciousness. I'm
>>>> troubled by the typical one-way communication that these announcements
>>>> are made and their effects on the community. There tends to be little
>>>> discussion about community practices regarding conferences, and the real
>>>> decisions tend to made by a small circle of people that are content to
>>>> maintain the status-quo. I'd like to continually remind people to get
>>>> involved with influencing these processes wherever they can; to keep it
>>>> on the radar, and remind people that these processes can be questioned.
>>>>> Yes, Sarven, you are a valued member of the Semantic Web community,
>>>> and so we are all interested in what you are doing, and this is the list
>>>> you should be using to share it (that is genuine - there is no irony or
>>>> sarcasm intended).
>>>> Thank you. Indeed, scholarly communication *is* precisely what I'm
>>>> working on. Critiquing assumptions and norms conferences in the
>>>> [Semantic] Web domain is me sharing my ideas and their evolution with
>>>> the list. They have matured, and they've had some impact - however
>>>> small. I am more than happy to take the technical aspects up a notch.
>>>> As others have pointed out, we can't separate technology from its social
>>>> implications. The Web is inherently social, as are academic processes,
>>>> and this mailing list is no exception! Voicing these ideas and prompting
>>>> others to do so is as important (if not more so) than developing tooling
>>>> and standards.
>>>> Thanks once more to all who have continued this discussion with their
>>>> various perspectives. These are all steps forward.
>>>> -Sarven

Antoine Zimmermann
ISCOD / LSTI - Institut Henri Fayol
École Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Saint-Étienne
158 cours Fauriel
42023 Saint-Étienne Cedex 2
Tél:+33(0)4 77 42 66 03
Fax:+33(0)4 77 42 66 66

Received on Wednesday, 21 February 2018 23:47:47 UTC