W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > semantic-web@w3.org > October 2017

Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Semantic Web Browser

From: Lee Curtis <lee.curtis@me.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 00:11:39 +1100
Cc: Olivier Rossel <olivier.rossel@gmail.com>, Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com>, W3C Semantic Web IG <semantic-web@w3.org>, public-rww <public-rww@w3.org>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net>, pragmaticweb@lists.spline.inf.fu-berlin.de
Message-id: <79136DF7-A86F-4D9A-AD55-3A659A042D6B@me.com>
To: Martynas Jusevičius <martynas@atomgraph.com>
Thanks. That looks very nice Martynas!


Lee Curtis | M: +61 (0) 438 256 875


> On 11 Oct 2017, at 22:16, Martynas Jusevičius <martynas@atomgraph.com> wrote:
> 
> Lee,
> 
> things has changed in 10 years :) Most importantly, SPARQL has arrived.
> 
> Please see if our platform comes closer to your needs: https://linkeddatahub.com/docs/about
> 
> 
> Martynas
> atomgraph.com
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Lee Curtis <lee.curtis@me.com> wrote:
>> I tend to agree, Olivier. Sorry for rant ... 
>> 
>> I am building a Data Ecosystem for state government. They tried and failed with RDF. And the tooling is no better 10 yrs later - so we not using it.
>> 
>> IMHO, whilst data maybe "graph-y" - the producer and consumer doesn't know or care what that means. Too often, SW tools don't hide their implementation and intimidate the user. 
>> 
>> I like datao.net but it's non trivial for "business people" and data admin staff - it looks like Swing not HTML 5. So locked to desktop? No mobile or web? That's fine for y2k but not 2017. 
>> 
>> Abstract your RDF via API and render as rich HTML. Aim for a declarative rendering syntax. Not hard. The UI tools should also create/consume JSON (not even JSON-LD). Use RDF internally to manage semantics, sharing, governance, etc.
>> 
>> I spent 12 months trying to hire then train software engineers. Too hard. Make it so that only one pizza team works on RDF. The rest use whatever they prefer. 
>> 
>> Customers pay for solutions - not tech. They live in the real world - not academia. They want "real" ontologies - that align with their digital supply chains. They want to link systems together - accounts, CRM, projects, ERP, HR, etc. They to share, discover and mash up. They want tools that hide all the details. 
>> 
>> I work with UX specialists not data engineers. 
>> 
>> I wrote an Excel plug many (many) years ago. It simply queried via a REST endpoint and abstracted the graph into a table that they could readily understand. Don't try to change someone's religion. 
>> 
>> I've wrote a few low code environments using RDF (too soon) - we tied requirements to design to build and deploy and lifecycle. All integrated - we got a full semantic audit trail for free. Only a few coders care / can tell we used RDF and not NoSQL. 
>> 
>> I tend to talk about nouns & verbs & properties & relationships not edges, vectors, predicates etc. stop rendering as a graph and use drill downs and trees instead. Find better abstractions that your mom would understand. 
>> 
>> Now, after 10yrs of working and selling the dream - I stopped. SW is just not there and few in W3C  see the vision for business only for pet projects and personal data - it's a hobby to almost everyone except Kingsley :-) and it shows. Without the funding and real use cases - it can't ever be successful. 
>> 
>> I'll still lurk and next year - maybe build some new RDF powered apps. 
>> 
>> But I still can dream. So good luck - keep the faith  look for real world problems, solve them, profit and the invest in the community. (Maybe I can help - if someone who wants to do that - I may be able to fund)
>> 
>> Lee Curtis | M: +61 (0) 438 256 875
>> 
>> 
>>> On 11 Oct 2017, at 19:09, Olivier Rossel <olivier.rossel@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> As the implementor of Datao.net and search.datao.net, I have made such
>>> a journey.
>>> I have felt absolutely no support from the Semantic Web community.
>>> Basically for the following reasons:
>>> - very few people in the Semantic Web community actually manage
>>> datasets in operational conditions (so there is no linked data to
>>> browse, cf http://sparqles.ai.wu.ac.at/availability)
>>> - very few people in the Semantic Web community actually consume
>>> semantic data in their processes (so noone can evaluate which
>>> libraries/tools are lacking for a proper consumption of RDF data)
>>> 
>>> But of course our point is to inspire people outside the Semantic Web community.
>>> And such people/companies have immediate requirements to fullfill.
>>> So they go the full custom HTML5+JSON way. With pretty amazing results.
>>> (for example, https://www.opendatasoft.com/?__hstc=239539164.c62bee8362047fa3180c631e1cdb654a.1507707345605.1507707345605.1507707345605.1&__hssc=239539164.1.1507707345605&__hsfp=2249888257
>>> )
>>> They know RDF very well, but see no market for that.
>>> We must understand why.
>>> 
>>>> From my own point of view, the success of the Semantic Web could come
>>> with tooling for programmers.
>>> If we manage to provide a few things:
>>> - a spec & robust implementations for rights management at named graph level
>>> - a spec & robust implementations for SPARQL transactions management
>>> at HTTP level
>>> - a robust OGM (Object-Graph Mapper) in most major languages
>>> - a robust REST library to auto-serialize/deserialize RDF (for ex, an
>>> extension to Jersey)
>>> - a proper marketing of the N3.js library on the client (honestly,
>>> how many people even inside our community knows that fabulous lib?)
>>> 
>>> Basically, we need a stack.
>>> Why not create RDFonRails, by the way :)
>>> 
>>> (btw, Neo4J basically provide 90% of all that, and is pretty
>>> successful, so may be we should just jump on the bandwagon)
>>> 
>>> After that, we can again concentrate on data. (especially data inside companies)
>>> Honestly, noone outside the community understands (or cares) about OWL.
>>> RDFS+owl:domain/owl:range is enough for a awful LOT of usages.
>>> (once again, Neo4J provides something quite like that, and it is LOVED
>>> by IT developpers)
>>> 
>>> What is important and game changers in the outside world is:
>>> - typing data, and multityping it (:VERYYYYY powerful)
>>> - merging graphs coming from different sources dealing with the same
>>> resources for a more capable graph
>>> 
>>> What is extremely hard in the outside world:
>>> - sharing URIs.
>>> - sharing data, in general
>>> 
>>> All these points are addressed poorly by the community. Basically
>>> because we do not do it massively ourselves.
>>> 
>>> But the more important advice I can give after some time spent outside
>>> the Semantic Web community:
>>> do not build a browser (you would rebuild datao.net/search.datao.net.
>>> Believe me, noone cares.), build a fucking awesome add-on for
>>> Microsoft Excel.
>>> 
>>> *That* would definitely change the way people deal with data.
>>> 
>>> </End of the yell>
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 5:18 AM, Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to clean up my last posted documents. I'd like to know if it is
>>>> possible to build a 'browser' or client for the Semantic Web as they exist
>>>> for HTML5. I think SW should do for 'data' what traditional Web (2.0) did
>>>> for document sharing.
>>>> 
>>>> We ended up building 'applications' (software user interfaces) over
>>>> technologies whose purpose was only distributed document editing.
>>>> 
>>>> We have no such practical starting point from which to evolve SW nor any
>>>> such widespread adoption. This could be regarded most as an advantage over
>>>> the Web of the past because there is no need to reinvent anything. And we
>>>> could start with a Web 3.0 already in its 'full potential'.
>>>> 
>>>> Such a SW 'browser' should not be an ontology editor or modelling tool.
>>>> Applications (declaratively) previously modeled should give advantages over
>>>> traditional web for a user but hiding the implementation details for the
>>>> developers of such applications.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe some applications may perform CRUD over certain RDF / SPARQL or
>>>> whatever triple stores they are using but this should be regarded as backend
>>>> and not user experiences.
>>>> 
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OqsVn6uo0cr6qruzWj9yRASrmvAIAf4HsHuLS2aRSy8/edit?usp=drivesdk
>>>> 
>>>> This are some thoughts on the subject. Any help is welcome. Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Sebasián.
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> 
> 
Received on Wednesday, 11 October 2017 13:12:14 UTC

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