- From: Lee Curtis <lee.curtis@me.com>
- Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 00:11:39 +1100
- To: Martynas Jusevičius <martynas@atomgraph.com>
- Cc: Olivier Rossel <olivier.rossel@gmail.com>, Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com>, W3C Semantic Web IG <semantic-web@w3.org>, public-rww <public-rww@w3.org>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net>, pragmaticweb@lists.spline.inf.fu-berlin.de
- Message-id: <79136DF7-A86F-4D9A-AD55-3A659A042D6B@me.com>
Thanks. That looks very nice Martynas! Lee Curtis | M: +61 (0) 438 256 875 > On 11 Oct 2017, at 22:16, Martynas Jusevičius <martynas@atomgraph.com> wrote: > > Lee, > > things has changed in 10 years :) Most importantly, SPARQL has arrived. > > Please see if our platform comes closer to your needs: https://linkeddatahub.com/docs/about > > > Martynas > atomgraph.com > >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Lee Curtis <lee.curtis@me.com> wrote: >> I tend to agree, Olivier. Sorry for rant ... >> >> I am building a Data Ecosystem for state government. They tried and failed with RDF. And the tooling is no better 10 yrs later - so we not using it. >> >> IMHO, whilst data maybe "graph-y" - the producer and consumer doesn't know or care what that means. Too often, SW tools don't hide their implementation and intimidate the user. >> >> I like datao.net but it's non trivial for "business people" and data admin staff - it looks like Swing not HTML 5. So locked to desktop? No mobile or web? That's fine for y2k but not 2017. >> >> Abstract your RDF via API and render as rich HTML. Aim for a declarative rendering syntax. Not hard. The UI tools should also create/consume JSON (not even JSON-LD). Use RDF internally to manage semantics, sharing, governance, etc. >> >> I spent 12 months trying to hire then train software engineers. Too hard. Make it so that only one pizza team works on RDF. The rest use whatever they prefer. >> >> Customers pay for solutions - not tech. They live in the real world - not academia. They want "real" ontologies - that align with their digital supply chains. They want to link systems together - accounts, CRM, projects, ERP, HR, etc. They to share, discover and mash up. They want tools that hide all the details. >> >> I work with UX specialists not data engineers. >> >> I wrote an Excel plug many (many) years ago. It simply queried via a REST endpoint and abstracted the graph into a table that they could readily understand. Don't try to change someone's religion. >> >> I've wrote a few low code environments using RDF (too soon) - we tied requirements to design to build and deploy and lifecycle. All integrated - we got a full semantic audit trail for free. Only a few coders care / can tell we used RDF and not NoSQL. >> >> I tend to talk about nouns & verbs & properties & relationships not edges, vectors, predicates etc. stop rendering as a graph and use drill downs and trees instead. Find better abstractions that your mom would understand. >> >> Now, after 10yrs of working and selling the dream - I stopped. SW is just not there and few in W3C see the vision for business only for pet projects and personal data - it's a hobby to almost everyone except Kingsley :-) and it shows. Without the funding and real use cases - it can't ever be successful. >> >> I'll still lurk and next year - maybe build some new RDF powered apps. >> >> But I still can dream. So good luck - keep the faith look for real world problems, solve them, profit and the invest in the community. (Maybe I can help - if someone who wants to do that - I may be able to fund) >> >> Lee Curtis | M: +61 (0) 438 256 875 >> >> >>> On 11 Oct 2017, at 19:09, Olivier Rossel <olivier.rossel@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> As the implementor of Datao.net and search.datao.net, I have made such >>> a journey. >>> I have felt absolutely no support from the Semantic Web community. >>> Basically for the following reasons: >>> - very few people in the Semantic Web community actually manage >>> datasets in operational conditions (so there is no linked data to >>> browse, cf http://sparqles.ai.wu.ac.at/availability) >>> - very few people in the Semantic Web community actually consume >>> semantic data in their processes (so noone can evaluate which >>> libraries/tools are lacking for a proper consumption of RDF data) >>> >>> But of course our point is to inspire people outside the Semantic Web community. >>> And such people/companies have immediate requirements to fullfill. >>> So they go the full custom HTML5+JSON way. With pretty amazing results. >>> (for example, https://www.opendatasoft.com/?__hstc=239539164.c62bee8362047fa3180c631e1cdb654a.1507707345605.1507707345605.1507707345605.1&__hssc=239539164.1.1507707345605&__hsfp=2249888257 >>> ) >>> They know RDF very well, but see no market for that. >>> We must understand why. >>> >>>> From my own point of view, the success of the Semantic Web could come >>> with tooling for programmers. >>> If we manage to provide a few things: >>> - a spec & robust implementations for rights management at named graph level >>> - a spec & robust implementations for SPARQL transactions management >>> at HTTP level >>> - a robust OGM (Object-Graph Mapper) in most major languages >>> - a robust REST library to auto-serialize/deserialize RDF (for ex, an >>> extension to Jersey) >>> - a proper marketing of the N3.js library on the client (honestly, >>> how many people even inside our community knows that fabulous lib?) >>> >>> Basically, we need a stack. >>> Why not create RDFonRails, by the way :) >>> >>> (btw, Neo4J basically provide 90% of all that, and is pretty >>> successful, so may be we should just jump on the bandwagon) >>> >>> After that, we can again concentrate on data. (especially data inside companies) >>> Honestly, noone outside the community understands (or cares) about OWL. >>> RDFS+owl:domain/owl:range is enough for a awful LOT of usages. >>> (once again, Neo4J provides something quite like that, and it is LOVED >>> by IT developpers) >>> >>> What is important and game changers in the outside world is: >>> - typing data, and multityping it (:VERYYYYY powerful) >>> - merging graphs coming from different sources dealing with the same >>> resources for a more capable graph >>> >>> What is extremely hard in the outside world: >>> - sharing URIs. >>> - sharing data, in general >>> >>> All these points are addressed poorly by the community. Basically >>> because we do not do it massively ourselves. >>> >>> But the more important advice I can give after some time spent outside >>> the Semantic Web community: >>> do not build a browser (you would rebuild datao.net/search.datao.net. >>> Believe me, noone cares.), build a fucking awesome add-on for >>> Microsoft Excel. >>> >>> *That* would definitely change the way people deal with data. >>> >>> </End of the yell> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 5:18 AM, Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I'm trying to clean up my last posted documents. I'd like to know if it is >>>> possible to build a 'browser' or client for the Semantic Web as they exist >>>> for HTML5. I think SW should do for 'data' what traditional Web (2.0) did >>>> for document sharing. >>>> >>>> We ended up building 'applications' (software user interfaces) over >>>> technologies whose purpose was only distributed document editing. >>>> >>>> We have no such practical starting point from which to evolve SW nor any >>>> such widespread adoption. This could be regarded most as an advantage over >>>> the Web of the past because there is no need to reinvent anything. And we >>>> could start with a Web 3.0 already in its 'full potential'. >>>> >>>> Such a SW 'browser' should not be an ontology editor or modelling tool. >>>> Applications (declaratively) previously modeled should give advantages over >>>> traditional web for a user but hiding the implementation details for the >>>> developers of such applications. >>>> >>>> Maybe some applications may perform CRUD over certain RDF / SPARQL or >>>> whatever triple stores they are using but this should be regarded as backend >>>> and not user experiences. >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OqsVn6uo0cr6qruzWj9yRASrmvAIAf4HsHuLS2aRSy8/edit?usp=drivesdk >>>> >>>> This are some thoughts on the subject. Any help is welcome. Regards, >>>> >>>> Sebasián. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list >>>> DBpedia-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion >>>> >>> >
Received on Wednesday, 11 October 2017 13:12:14 UTC