Re: [semantic-web] <none>

Azamat:

You do not make one mistake that Saint R. made. You talk about your holiness only indirectly. That is some progress at least.

Now .....

There are two kinds of people but ... not the way you divide them up.

There is one kind who make no bones about how they earn a living. They exchange values to mutual benefit, with one overriding proviso. They never force anyone to buy their product. Both businessmen and scientists are in this category. The claims such people make are always limited to this governing condition ... The person buying my value believes he is better off than if he didn't buy it.  Otherwise, in a free market, he wouldn't buy it.

The second make a living by extracting values in an exchange for which there is no mutual consent. Businessmen and scientists are in that category, as well as most politicians. Their claim is somewhat different...  I am going to force you to buy my value at a price acceptable to me, whether you want it or not.

In the second group, known hereinafter as The Saints Who Walk Among Us (TSWWAU), there is a kind of general battle cry. .... I am doing this for the public good. I benefit all of mankind. I serve the people. All the while, their tenured existence is possible because of revenues that have no link to their output. Without the holier than thou rationalization, which does fool some people,  the sham might have to come to an end. Imagine universities where the professors would be forced to sell themselves and their ideas to students who would be willing to pay for the knowledge they acquire. 

Saint R. makes a living ... or he would not survive. If he works for himself or for others where the discipline is of the first kind, then he is not "spending my time here because I think there 
  will be money or a job or prizes in return".  He would be subject to the discipline that he must  produce daily in a way that he generates surplus value, for himself and for his customers.

I suspect, however, that I nailed Saint R.'s situation spot on. He works in some place where his pay cheque is not linked to his output. He eats food (grown by other men), at a table, (built by other men) and housed in a building (constructed by other men). And as long as he wishes, they will continue to work to provide his daily table.

Now ... where in that scenario, does he acquire the credentials to claim that property belonging to  people (who daily must be productive, to survive) is somehow not theirs.  Where does such arrogance come from? It comes not from accomplishment .... that we all know.

You say I misread what he tried to tell me?  

I wrote about what he was not saying.  I don't take the claims of a human being that he is a saint to heart.  When a man cries repeatedly that he is honest, I know him to be something else. When a man says, "trust me", we all know that we should run.

All men, good and bad, come from the same clay as myself, including Saint R. For his own sake, he should admit that.

And the consequences of that self admission are stark. Saint R. (and all the silent wannabes) has to face his own fallibility. He may work for all mankind but unless his output meets the test of being exchangeable in a free market, it is suspect. Our history as men is full of failed experiments where the value of any output was never tested against a free market. Rather it was forced upon others. And what happens when ideas are forced upon others by the do gooders. Disaster.

Failure to test oneself against a free market, in exchange for one's daily bread is bad enough. but to claim, as Saint R. stood up to do,  that the property of productive people is somehow not theirs and have as your only credential that you sponge values away from others in exchange for nothing is what got me to send my emails.

I have followed this issue since the first notices were sent out years ago that RDF falls within an issued patent. So I got a copy of the patent and I read it. And I read the RDF specs. They are really quite similar.

The only answer that people come up with (other than the "I am holy, you are dirt" nonsense from Saint R.) is that it is all invented before. Really????

Then answer me this, if you can.

If it was all there before, why spend over 10 years since Oct of 1997, debating the RDF standard that was created over 2.5 years previous to that. If it was all there, neatly organized, why not just go down to the local convenience store and pick up a six pack of it for two dollars.

The answer to that - which is the answer that no one wants to admit - is that it was NOT invented before. There may have been some spurious hints but no one made the connection until the good folks who own the patent. And since they filed their patent in late 1994 - before the MCF was invented by Guha at Apple in 1995 ... which is what Netscape worked on for a year before they sent it to W3 in January of 1997 - seems to me you have to admit one of two things.

1)    Everyone at the W3 has engaged in a sham, inventing 50 times over what has already been invented a hundred years ago... or

2)    you have all been working on something which is not yours.

There is only one way out and Saint R. has come up with that alternative - all patents are invalid.

Good luck with that one.

JM 





----- Original Message ----
From: Azamat <abdoul@cytanet.com.cy>
To: SW-forum <semantic-web@w3.org>
Cc: John Milton <swdemon1981@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 10:00:03 AM
Subject: Re: [semantic-web] <none>




 
DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}



John,

 


It looks 
you misread what Renato tried to tell you. 

 
  
 
There are 
two classes of people, people of science and folks doing business. Those 
who in the first class all their conscious life are engaged in the search 
of truth and knowledge for its own sake, like men of art seeking beauty for 
its own sake, without any practical ends. All great intellectual deeds and 
outstanding achievements and revolutionary explorations have been done by 
this unique kind of people, designated as the class of intellectuals, 
marked by a romantic disregard for money. And Truth is their only real 
divinity.

 
 
Now, those 
who belong to the second class are mostly concerned about making capital for 
themselves at the expense of others, if ever possible.   So, they 
are supposed to be selfish men doing money out of anything, be it even a sacred 
cause. They are very realistic and sensible about practical matters, with 
down-to-earth common sense, and commercial approach to any situation. All big 
commercial exploits and business enterprises mostly have been done by this kind 
of people, marked by seeking commercial profit in any activity. And Mammon is 
their only real deity.
 
 
 
One cannot 
serve both Truth and Mammon. But I am not inclined to demonize the second class 
and sanctify the first one, for all are doing their contribution to the 
advancement of humanity for better life and society.
 
 
 
The point 
is, in this commercial society, the intellectuals look more defenseless, 
since they can do nothing but think and create by mental means, and so can be 
easily used and exploited by the second class of people, with no proper 
pecuniary compensation for their services.
 
What you 
have been politely hinted, just show a proper respect for a man of 
intelligence, who earned high regard, instead of showing your shrewdness 
and disrespect and now sarcasm. 
 
  
 
Also, be 
ready that your exploit may be all for naught, a pathetic goose end, at 
best, adding a pile of patents with something of temporal importance, while 
true ideas, as you might guess, will survive all of us, now being 
embodied as ontologies in semantic technology and intelligent 
machines. 

 

take 
care,  
 
 
 
azamat 
abdoullaev 

 
 
http://www.igi-pub.com/books/details.asp?id=7641 
 
 

 
 


  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: 
  John 
  Milton 

  To: renato@ebi.ac.uk ; M. David 
  Peterson 

  Cc: Tim Berners-Lee ; SW-forum Web 

  Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:12 
  PM

  Subject: Re: [semantic-web] 
  <none>

  


  
  Dear 
  Saint Renato:

How thrilled I am to be in the exalted presence of 
  someone destined to sit at the right hand of God, along with Mother Teresa. 
  Freed at birth from unholy sin, Saint Renato walks among us, a shining light 
  to that which we must all aspire. How noble you are, how saintly, how much 
  better than all of us lowly sinners. We are not worthy to walk the same 
  streets. You exist only for others, never for yourself. 

Please forgive 
  a lowly sinner (like myself) who wishes to take umbrage with Saint Renato's 
  musings. I and the world at large truly treasure all the moments when Saint R. 
  has excreted his profundities upon everything and everyone within reach. But 
  perhaps a few points might have some value.

For a sinner's view of 
  Saint Renato's POV, please take a moment on the comments below.


  ----- 
  Original Message ----
From: Renato golin <renato@ebi.ac.uk>
To: M. 
  David Peterson <m.david@xmlhacker.com>
Cc: John Milton 
  <swdemon1981@yahoo.com>; Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org>; SW-forum 
  Web <semantic-web@w3.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:41:16 
  AM
Subject: Re: [semantic-web] <none>

M. David Peterson 
  wrote:
> Technology is both an act of invention and an act of 
  refinement.

There is no invention, only refinement. Everything you 
  invented was 
already invented, only not patented.

Okay 
  -.....

If technology is A (act of invention) AND.. B (act of 
  refinement) ... then how do you reconcile this with the next line 
  ..

There is no A (invention), just B (act of refinement).

Since 
  Technology (according to Saint R.'s excretion) is both A and B, and A does not 
  exist, then Technology does not exist.

Faith based technology. How far 
  have we not come.




The universe is just an expression of its 
  intimate laws. Everything on 
top of that (like a fractal) will be another 
  expression on top of the 
basic ones.

What you are is only another 
  form of expression and like you, your 
brain. When you were born you had a 
  few hard-coded (by nature through 
natural selection) instructions and 
  *everything* you saw later already 
existed in nature.


Saint R. 
  makes another good point for his faith based dogma. Since what you are is A 
  (hardcoded - by nature and natural selection) AND B (also "everything" else is 
  also previously in nature) then You are simply nature.

Saint R. now 
  states that humans are not different from rocks, comets, or large quantities 
  of methane gas.





Therefore, as your brain was selected 
  by nature and what you learn comes 
from nature, the ultimate owner of 
  *ALL* ideas is nature itself, and 
because nature has no bank account we 
  store its money on our own by 
creating a very stupid idea like 
  patents.

Saint R. has another wonderful point. In nature, everything is 
  food for everything else. Since Saint R.is now food for anything that can grab 
  him, perhaps he might wish to pubish his address. I am getting hungry. Yum, 
  Yum, some Saint R. bum.





When will people learn that 
  copyright, patents, intellectual property 
[1], anti-piracy, RIAA and the 
  like is *ONLY ABOUT MONEY*?

I wonder if Saint R. can understand what is 
  truly involved in that last statement. Money is the expression of the idea 
  that a man lives by his own production and is entitled to it, in full. The 
  world is full of thieves, who produce nothing but consume all they 
  encounter.

Saint R. might want to revisit this last statement or he may 
  find that the reward he is looking for in the next life might come from one of 
  God's former acolytes instead.


There is no ideals, ideas, thoughts, 
  anything. All legal techniques are 
ways to protect your *money* not your 
  ideas, for ideas are recurrent, 
inherent and natural.

You can sue 
  me because you have a patent and I implemented the same 
thing, only later, 
  but you *CAN'T* sue me because I had the same idea as 
you 
  had.

Saint R. - we can finally agree on something. You have no ideas. 
  Since all comes from nature, in your view, noting you are or have is yours. It 
  is all something you got from someone else. Since, in nature, most things are 
  taken by force (the lion does not ask for permission to eat a goat), whatever 
  you have or are, was acquired the same way.

Thieves always take by 
  force or stealth. infinging a patent is just another form of this. 

Not 
  quite sure, however, how you are going to reconcile this incessant thievery of 
  yours with your hopes of sitting at the right hand of the 
  Almighty.



Finally,

I'm not in this list because I want 
  financial return or I think that my 
ideas will be implemented by W3C so I 
  can further sue them. I'm not 
spending my time here because I think there 
  will be money or a job or 
prizes in return.

I'm here to make this 
  world a better place and, for a change, people 
could stop suing each other 
  for something they were naturally selected 
to do.

Dear Saint 
  R.  Let me make two points.

1)  I will always treasure the 
  chance to have conversed with you. Your natural superiority to all of the rest 
  of us is heartening.

2)  Let us look to nature to see how this 
  last sentence of yours can be interpreted.

If productive people are 
  naturally selected, then so must be unproductive people. In nature, a bull elk 
  guards his harem. Productive people guard their patents. I wouldn't compare 
  you to a cow elk, because they are productive as well.

You are more 
  like the a frustrated young bull, trying to become productive yet doomed for 
  years to hang around another's herd, hoping one day to secure the status that 
  allows you to become productive.

Like the young bull, bugling his 
  frustration yet fearful that the dominant bull will notice you, you hover 
  around the productive people, hoping one day to join their ranks.

Your 
  fate (because in nature, you have only fate and no chance to change outside 
  the laws of your own genes) does not guarantee  an ultimate success in 
  this world. You may move into the next world with your frustration 
  intact.

Take heart ...  someone will 
  understand.


J.M.





best 
  regards,
--renato

[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.xhtml






  
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