RE: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan

Hey people. Just was talking to Paola and would like to express
my support. I'm in favour for setting up an IG. Next steps?

Cheers,
	Michael

PS: And Paola sitting right next to me says she enjoys the food and the drinks very much ;)

----------------------------------------------------------
 Michael Hausenblas, MSc.
 Institute of Information Systems & Information Management
 JOANNEUM RESEARCH Forschungsgesellschaft mbH
 Steyrergasse 17, A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA
---------------------------------------------------------- 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-semweb-ui-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-semweb-ui-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of 
> paola.dimaio@gmail.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:54 PM
> To: Lloyd Rutledge
> Cc: Max Wilson; <editor@content-wire.com>; Ivan Herman; 
> emmanuelle@sidar.org; T.Heath; SW-forum Web; public-semweb-ui@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
> 
> Brilliant Lloyd thanks
> I will arrive late afternoon, around 7, could not find 
> another flight so please take notes and keep us all posted 
> about the tutorial, will catch up in the evening or on 
> arrival If there is a post tutorial event/get together, 
> please drop me an email here and I ll join you thanks PDM
> 
> On 11/10/07, Lloyd Rutledge <Lloyd.Rutledge@cwi.nl> wrote:
> > Another gathering point for this discussion could be the at 
> or aronnd 
> > the tutorial tomorrow (Sunday) on "User Centered Design for 
> the Semantic Web"
> > <http://www.dfki.de/~jameson/iswc07-tutorial/>.
> >
> > -Lloyd
> >
> > Max Wilson wrote:
> > > This swuiwiki.webscience.org, which is a great place to 
> output any 
> > > user based BOF discussion at ISWC this year, has a managed editor 
> > > list but is free to view by anyone. Contact details for 
> getting an 
> > > editor account are on the front page. Roberto, and now 
> Paola, along 
> > > with many some now have accounts.
> > >
> > > Max Wilson
> > >
> > > On 10 Nov 2007, at 09:51, <editor@content-wire.com 
> > > <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> <editor@content-wire.com 
> > > <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Ivan and all
> > >> me too leaving soon and still working on my reservations, 
> > >> shutingdown in a few minutes...
> > >>
> > >> Preliminary list of issues on the fly:
> > >>
> > >> 1. New semantic web tools are being released (primarily 
> RDF based 
> > >> but Ontology editors and othe semantic technologiesr  too) that 
> > >> look as if they are promising and useful  but little or no 
> > >> 'usability good practices' is in place to make such applications 
> > >> useful to those who have never seen one before  (ie  the 
> majority 
> > >> of the intended users)
> > >>
> > >> People (non developers) dont know
> > >> a) what to do with theb
> > >> b) how to do it
> > >>
> > >> 2. you can look at all the usability issues that once 
> existed about 
> > >> web 1.0, great advances have been made there in term of internet 
> > >> usability/accessibility, so that now even  grandparents 
> can manage 
> > >> to check emails without prior knowledge - we are in a 
> similar phase 
> > >> with semantic web applications, we (non developers, otherwise 
> > >> intelligent - users with different operational business 
> and other 
> > >> IT background not RDF) need/want to learn how to use 
> them and give 
> > >> feedback to developers, but they cant. They also feel a little 
> > >> helpless and stupid in the process, typical symptoms of poor 
> > >> usability
> > >>
> > >> Semantic technologies are now designed to be used by specialists 
> > >> (understandable as these are mostly alpha/beta, but as 
> they become 
> > >> more and more pervasive, also their usability must increase)
> > >>
> > >> 3. Genral lack of guidelines, how to's and comprehensive list of 
> > >> tutorials and support for people who would like to use 
> the things, 
> > >> as well as for developers who dont know what seem to understand 
> > >> what the issues are. Sometimes semantic web tools appear 
> mysterious 
> > >> in appearance and functionality to the uninitated.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think in the BOF we could aim to expand the above list 
> of 'issues'
> > >> with inputs from different viewpoints, identify what is 
> the cause 
> > >> of lack of usability, discuss possible initiatives that could 
> > >> increase usability, including possibly some futuristic web based 
> > >> application/service to collect all the user comments 
> from semantic 
> > >> test environments and gather them in a repository that could be 
> > >> used to develop tutorials (support the users) as well as 
> guidelines 
> > >> (help the developers develop more friendly tools following 
> > >> appropriate guidelines). Anything else that interested 
> contributors 
> > >> feel should be added/discussed
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Wiki
> > >>
> > >> I tried to log into Roberto's suggested wiki, but cannot 
> creat an 
> > >> account (the option login/create account only leads to a login 
> > >> screen, not a create account one) I have already written 
> to Robert 
> > >> about it
> > >>
> > >> Could not find conference wiki
> > >>
> > >> Any wiki where I can write to would be good at stage, if you can 
> > >> set one up quickly on the way to the airport and post 
> the contents 
> > >> of this message, if we dont hear from Roberto otherwise, 
> would be 
> > >> fine for me
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Ivan and all
> > >> Please note that your reply if you dont cc my gmail
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> look forward
> > >>
> > >> PDM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org 
> > >> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
> > >> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>
> > >> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org 
> <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'"
> > >> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
> "'SW-forum Web'"
> > >> <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
> > >> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:29 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Setting up a wiki page on ESW is not a problem; but Roberto 
> > >> referred to an existing page already. Whichever people 
> feel is better.
> > >>
> > >> I would still like to understand the issues first.
> > >>
> > >> Is there some sort of a wiki or other option set up for ISWC 
> > >> participants? It would be a good place to organize such ad hoc 
> > >> get-togethers... I have tried to find at the ISWC page, but have 
> > >> not found any.
> > >>
> > >> Ivan
> > >>
> > >> P.S. Leaving for Korea in about 5 hours...
> > >>
> > >> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote:
> > >>> Dear Ivan and all
> > >>>
> > >>> thanks for the interest in this issue it will be good to meet
> > >>>
> > >>> It looks like from the responses so far that we have some 
> > >>> momentum, and considering I cannot quite help with the 
> debugging 
> > >>> of the applications just as yet , I ll be happy to help 
> foster a 
> > >>> plan
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there a W3C wiki page dedicated to Usability of Semantic Web 
> > >>> where I can post some notes? If not shall I open a wiki 
> elsewhere? 
> > >>> Thanks
> > >>>
> > >>> The people who have expressed explicit interest so far are 
> > >>> Emmanuelle Sidar Tom Heath  Open U Knud Hinner Deri M 
> Daquin Open 
> > >>> U Hugh Glaser Roberto Garcia J Chetwynd Richard Cygniak Ivan 
> > >>> Herman (update this list if I missed anyone) Adrian Walker sent 
> > >>> some notes (havent read yet) [1] 
> > >>> 
> www.reengineeringllc.com/Internet_Business_Logic_e-Government_Pres
> > >>> entation.pdf
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Except for those who are not in Busan, whom we shall 
> keep posted 
> > >>> of any discussions and outcomes on list,  I look forward to be 
> > >>> meeting everybody in the next few days
> > >>>
> > >>> Tom Heath suggests a  BOF meeting at lunch on Thursday, 
> which may 
> > >>> be fine for some but others may have flown already by then, so 
> > >>> anyone who can make it for lunch contact Tom directly to get 
> > >>> details/directions
> > >>>
> > >>> I hope that maybe an additional/alternative informal 
> get together 
> > >>> before Thursday an be arranged, for those who still 
> have a spare 
> > >>> slot and may have left by Thursday -  email your availability 
> > >>> and/or just catch me ( I ll try to wear a tshirt that says 
> > >>> SEMANTIC USABILITY  if I can get it printed on the fly)
> > >>>
> > >>> i am best contacted via  paola.dimaio ATDONOTSPAMMEANYMORE 
> > >>> gmail.com, but cannot post to list from there
> > >>>
> > >>> With the OK of the organisers, I will put up a notice on the 
> > >>> conference message board about details
> > >>>
> > >>> Look forward!
> > >>> Thanks a lot for interest
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers
> > >>> Paola Di Maio
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org 
> > >>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
> > >>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>
> > >>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org 
> <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'"
> > >>> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
> "'SW-forum Web'" 
> > >>> <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
> > >>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:01 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I will be there. And I would like to understand the issues and 
> > >>> whether W3C is in position to do something about those.
> > >>>
> > >>> Note that W3C has been facing the issue of usability for a long 
> > >>> time (Semantic or not Semantic Web) but we could never 
> get enough 
> > >>> member enthusiasm to start something more serious in 
> the area.... 
> > >>> (except for the web accessibility area which probably 
> includes a 
> > >>> subset of the general usability issues).
> > >>>
> > >>> Ivan
> > >>>
> > >>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think Tom and I and others may meet in Busan next 
> week, this is 
> > >>>> something I ll put in my agenda too to instigate about. Anyone 
> > >>>> else on this list is going to be in Busan, and has an 
> interest in 
> > >>>> Usability and Accessibility and related issues, please mail me 
> > >>>> online and I ll post details of any time/place 
> suggested for an 
> > >>>> informal get together to scheme something up cheers 
> Paola Di Maio 
> > >>>> www.mfu.ac.th
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmanuelle 
> Gutiérrez y Restrepo"
> > >>>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>
> > >>>> To: "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk 
> <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; 
> > >>>> <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>;
> > >>>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org 
> > >>>> <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>>
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 AM
> > >>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Tom and all,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes, you are right, and it has not been my intention, "tar you 
> > >>>> all with the same brush".
> > >>>> But I know a lot of developers of semantics 
> applications, which 
> > >>>> are nice, intelligent, and whom I greatly appreciate; 
> And yet not 
> > >>>> often worry about the accessibility of his creatures.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think that the Paola's idea can be useful. We are working in 
> > >>>> some similar, so maybe we can work on it togheter.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And we can think in another ideas. But I think that 
> the W3C has 
> > >>>> some type of responsability on it too. And I'm sure 
> that they can 
> > >>>> do something about it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All the best,
> > >>>> Emmanuelle
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo  Fundación Sidar 
> Coordinadora 
> > >>>> del SIDAR www.sidar.org <http://www.sidar.org>
> > >>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org>
> > >>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Mensaje original-----
> > >>>> De: T.Heath [mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk] Enviado el: 
> miércoles, 
> > >>>> 07 de noviembre de 2007 16:04
> > >>>> Para: emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>; 
> > >>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; 
> > >>>> SW-forum Web
> > >>>> Asunto: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Emmanuelle,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I understand and share your apparent frustration, but please 
> > >>>> don't "tar us all with the same brush" [1] :) There are many 
> > >>>> people working in the Semantic Web field who care deeply about 
> > >>>> understanding, and catering to, the needs of human users (yes, 
> > >>>> you and I agree, humans are the Semantic Web's ultimate target 
> > >>>> audience). Last year's SWUI workshop at ISWC [2] and 
> the next in 
> > >>>> the series [3] at CHI2008 are good indicators of this 
> commitment.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sadly, and despite this, the human agenda doesn't 
> always get the 
> > >>>> recognition it deserves in the community. Some additional 
> > >>>> initiatives in this area would be a great idea I think :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush
> > >>>> [2] http://swui.semanticweb.org/swui06/
> > >>>> [3] http://swui.semanticweb.org/SWUI2008CHI/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: semantic-web-request@w3.org 
> > >>>> <mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org> on behalf of Emmanuelle
> > >>>> Gutiérrez y
> > >>>> Restrepo
> > >>>> Sent: Wed 07/11/2007 12:27 PM
> > >>>> To: editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; 
> > >>>> 'SW-forum Web'
> > >>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi "PDM",
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I agree with you. There are a lot of work around the "semantic 
> > >>>> web" and maybe is a good work for the "machines". But I can't 
> > >>>> understand why the people working on it don't care about 
> > >>>> accessibility. The semantic web is nothing if can't be 
> useful for the humans.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Accessibility means usability for all. So, I think 
> that complain 
> > >>>> with the WCAG must be *prerequisite* for each semantic web 
> > >>>> application.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best regards,
> > >>>> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo         Fundación Sidar
> > >>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR                  www.sidar.org
> > >>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org>
> > >>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>  _____
> > >>>>
> > >>>> De: semantic-web-request@w3.org 
> > >>>> [mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org] En nombre de 
> > >>>> editor@content-wire.com 
> <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> Enviado 
> > >>>> el: miércoles, 07 de noviembre de
> > >>>> 2007 11:40
> > >>>> Para: SW-forum Web
> > >>>> Asunto: User testing for semantic applicatons
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I must say something
> > >>>> There are a lot of cool applications coming up, I try most of 
> > >>>> them , but they are new I am not sure what to expect 
> exactly. What should it do?
> > >>>> How do
> > >>>> I know if there is an error, or if this is really the way it 
> > >>>> should look?
> > >>>> Little documentation, usability almost not taken into 
> account etc.
> > >>>> Also I dont have all day, just a few minutes, a few 
> clicks, then 
> > >>>> I lose interest, must move on
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Now, the linked data below is quite straighforward intuitive 
> > >>>> interface (not bad in fact) although a few more 
> explanations and 
> > >>>> how to's would be good. I also got an error when I tried it 
> > >>>> (different from the error below) not sure what to do next
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All this to suggest  a forum is created to handle usability of 
> > >>>> semantic applications, where we 'users' can report our 
> > >>>> experiences and get some help in running/understanding the 
> > >>>> stuffs. I have a lot of feedback and user tests 
> already running 
> > >>>> on semantic applications, may be most productive if handled 
> > >>>> collectively and shared, rather than just sent to the 
> developers 
> > >>>> who are likely not to understand my problem anyway (we seem to 
> > >>>> speak different
> > >>>> languages)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> thoughts?
> > >>>> cheers
> > >>>> PDM
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: Tim Berners-Lee <mailto:timbl@w3.org>
> > >>>> To: Hugh Glaser <mailto:hg@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
> > >>>> Cc: Linking Open Data 
> <mailto:linking-open-data@simile.mit.edu>  
> > >>>> ; SW-forum Web <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>  ; Ian  
> > >>>> <mailto:icm@ecs.soton.ac.uk> Millard
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:15 AM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: Linked Data available
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Umm ,,, in
> > >>>> 
> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d0
> > >>>> 4733ea
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> get
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Request for
> > >>>> 
> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d0
> > >>>> 4733eaabout
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> under the hood
> > >>>> Label Request for
> > >>>> 
> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d0
> > >>>> 4733ea
> > >>>> Status 200
> > >>>> StatusText OK
> > >>>> Accept-ranges bytes
> > >>>> Connection close
> > >>>> Content-length 2005
> > >>>> Content type text/xml
> > >>>> Date Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:37 GMT Etag 
> > >>>> "7785ba-7d5-43e4bd0f48e00"
> > >>>> Last-modified Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:36 GMT Server 
> Apache/2.0.52 
> > >>>> (Red
> > >>>> Hat)
> > >>>> Handler opt off expandfetchSourceFetcher.XMLHandler
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Something funny about the XML:  Line 2: doctype broken.  Shoud 
> > >>>> not be a doctype.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE rdf:RDF [
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY rdf 
> 'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY rdfs 'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY owl 'http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY akt 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/portal#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY akts 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/support#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY extn 
> 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/extension#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY wiki 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wiki/'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY resist
> > >>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resist#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY resex
> > >>>> 
> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resilience-mechanisms#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY courseware
> > >>>> 'http://www.resist-noe.org/ontology/courseware#'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY dc 'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'>
> > >>>>        <!ENTITY dct 'http://purl.org/dc/terms/'> ]> <rdf:RDF
> > >>>>        xmlns:rdf="&rdf;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:rdfs="&rdfs;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:owl="&owl;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:akt="&akt;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:akts="&akts;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:extn="&extn;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:wiki="&wiki;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:resist="&resist;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:resex="&resex;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:courseware="&courseware;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:dc="&dc;"
> > >>>>        xmlns:dct="&dct;"
> > >>>>        >
> > >>>>        <owl:Ontology rdf:about="">
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [....]
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> > >> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ PGP Key: 
> > >> http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> > >> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------
> > > n - max wilson
> > > e - mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk> w - 
> > > www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r>
> > > t - +44 (0) 2380 598367
> > > ----------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Paola Di Maio
> School of IT
> www.mfu.ac.th
> *********************************************
>

Received on Tuesday, 13 November 2007 10:42:54 UTC