- From: <leo@mgn.ru>
- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 21:14:55 +0500 (YEKT)
- To: "Alexander Zelitchenko" <zelitchenk@yahoo.com>
- Cc: editor@content-wire.com, semantic-web@w3.org
Alexander, Indeed from the Semiotics point of view Semantics and Pragmatics are included into with proper meaning. I wrote about it already in the "3. Mid-range objectives" part of my paper "To keep abreast of the 21st century" - http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/21abreast.htm . Except the Semiotics some more fundamental ideas are pointed out in the paper. Suppose they must be taken into account in the Future IT too. Leonid Ototsky - http://paterleo.wikispces.com > Let us continue. > > I share your vision, that sw uses too old ideas of AI and invests in > them too big efforts. Of course, the initial aim was to cover > applications, where there are no explicit formal (mathematical, logical > etc.) models of reality, but after now near half-century of experience > with AI it had to be more or less clear from the very beginning - where > its methods work and how they work. But you are right also in your > second observation - big investments in old ideas make it difficult (and > not only psychologically) to be unfaithful to them. > > What about the future of Pragmatic Web, this will be determined only by > its success in resolving practical tasks and developing application in > the scopes, where traditional approach did not work. But I see pw as > continuation of sw, next step in our understanding what methods work and > what does not work with transformation of texts into meanings. And in > this perspective I do not see real big problem if some efforts with > modern mode in sw will demonstrate a limitations which are more than > their authors expected. > > > > > editor@content-wire.com wrote: > Thanks > > One more thought from me: re.the fact that sw is appropriate for high > formality environments > (I think you mean data which has been tagged/formatted in a certain way) > I am not sure if thats is the way it is intended in the first place, or > it is just happening like that because that's what people have managed > to come up with so far. Admittedly, a lot of what is done in sw today is > heavily influenced by > computer science paradigms, which tend to become obsolete so quickly > these days... the technology 'markets' however function following rather > lengthy 'commercial cycles', so after investing so much on some things, > they are very reluctant to scrap their plans before their products come > to maturity etc... > ..even if we all agree that is what needs to be done... somehow I think > the IT industry is between > the vision and the visionaries.....so I understand if the pw want to cut > out a little corner for themselves where they want to invent their own > world anew where they do not have to live with the 'real world' > constraints - it would be a pity if all the efforts being put in sw > today would not benefit from the freshest thinking because of some > structural systemic limitation of the way things are done > > Surely if the technologies that will be coming ahead will enable us to > do without all this rdf/owl business trouble, and be able to reason and > infer and support logic using natural languages, I think that would be > a great leap forward - whatever it is going to be called..sw/pw whatnot > > I ll start thinking of a defintion for pw, > best wishes > PDM > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alexander Zelitchenko > To: editor@content-wire.com > Cc: semantic-web@w3.org > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 3:17 PM > Subject: Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web > > > Thank you, Paola; > > To continue our exchange of views, I'd like to say that I see natural > development of PW as part of natural development of SW. In fact, most > important thing is the set of tasks which may be resolved in framework > of given approach. Obviously, 'classic' approach of SW is appropriate > for some class of problems with high formality and low uncertainty and > variability, which are usually introduced by the factor of "natural > human psychology'. Obviously, out of this class SW need to develop other > and perhaps more specific approaches. Some of them must be called > 'Pragmatic Web'. I do not afraid (at least for the present moment) fuzzy > definitions of what you call 'my pragmatic web', because the value of > each approach and each definition here depend on how powerful web tool > this approach creates. In other words, each approach must prove its > usefulness and must find its own scope of application. I see this is as > the only way to clarify what is 'real PW". > > But in any case, I think it would be very useful to exchange by > preliminary personal definitions of 'what must be called PW' > > AZ > > P.S. By the way I also have no yet moderator approval from PW web-site > and mailing list. Maybe Christmas time is reason? > > editor@content-wire.com wrote: > Alexander > thanks a lot for your thoughts > My idea behind the semantic web corresponds to what we are now starting > to call the pragmatic web > except that 'semantic web' was the name given at the time > Also my ideas of what the pragmatic web is/can be/will be is slightly > different from your description, and slightly different from what the > manifesto says > > I would say that we could start by creating a definition, or set of > definitions that we can all agree on > (otherwise it will be 'my pragmatic web') > > Regarding the technology, I do think that futures gen web technologies > will evolve towards what is currently defined as pw, but I do perceive > that as a natural evolution of the sw and maybe therefore > will require a terminology adaptation ie name change > > finally I do think that from the pw vision a few pointers should come to > help untangle the current struggles and knots that we are in the sw - as > a lot of the problems that we may get stuck into today may not be > central to what is ahead - but this can only happen if we open up the > debate to all interested parties > (I still have not received the mail confirmation from the pw mailing > list! is it implicit? is anyone else on that list who could kindly nudge > the list moderators on my behalf? thanks) > > more to talk I guess... > cheers > > PDM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alexander Zelitchenko > To: editor@content-wire.com > Cc: semantic-web@w3.org > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web > > > I'll simply try to explain my vision of your questions. > > 1. What does 'pragmatic web' mean, as opposed to 'semantic web?' > (is it just another buzzword, or does it better convey the meaning of > what is intended? > > I use 'pragmatic web' not like synonym for 'semantic web'. Pragmatic web > is subset of semantic web, where the practically infinite set of > classes, traits, relations, attributes and so on is limited in effective > way by intentions of web-participants. > > The second moment seems to be very important is that 'real ontology' is > determined in pragmatic web in process of INTERACTION (between 2 human > participants, as it is in "Manifest of pragmatic Web group" or between > dialog wizard and one human participant in the article, which I propose > to your attention). > > 2. Are semantic web technologies, as we are developing them today, > going to be capable of delivering 'pragmatic' capabilities (that is > are they going to be capable of supporting context sensitive > reasoning?If not, what is missing) > > I do not think, that they are capable. There are a lot of things, which > are well known to cognitive psychologists, but are missed in present > approaches. First is experience. All human semantic is based on human > experience (internal images of the world, as the world is represented > namely by this person). The second thing is that human semantic is > always semantic of acting human being with his aims, intentions, > repertoir of actions and so on. The third thing is that human system for > processing of meanings is multilevel one, where different levels use not > exactly same principles of processing. There is also even more > metaphysical 'fourth' principle of human semantic - "making of senses", > but they must be discussed separately. > > 3. What kind of vision is there for the pragmatic web, what > technologies? > > Pragmatic Web may include some thing (like seeing Web participant as > acting persons, for example) into consideration and actively use > man-machine interaction to clarifying 'real semantic'. > > 4. How would the vision for the pragmatic web fit into the vision for > the semantic web? > > Semantic Web today is philosophy and technology. Pragmatic Web is part > of the same philosophy, but propose quite different technology. > Technology of semantic web works well only in very formal application. > The more application informal the less semantic web technology is > appropriate. On the contrary, pragmatic web is addressed to wide range > of 'non-formal' applications. Thus relationships between these 2 classes > of technologies must resulted in each of them will be used for its own > tasks. > > > See also > > > http://www.pragmaticweb.info/ > > Here the Pragmatic Web manifesto: > > http://www.wi1.uni-hohenheim.de/Publikationen/2006/PragWebManifesto.pdf > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alexander Zelitchenko > To: semantic-web@w3.org > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: Semantic Web as Pragmatic Web > > > Dear Adrian; > > Thank you too much. I read their manifest and do see that there are some > co-thinking. Their main idea of human interaction, based on interactors' > aims, to develop common ontology in specific field of mutual interest > seems to be rather strong. Their criticism in respect of common Semantic > Web restriction is quite precise. I defenetely will trace their activity > and try to show them my vision. Once again - thank you. > > With best regards > Alexander > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Received on Tuesday, 25 December 2007 16:15:04 UTC