- From: Norm Tovey-Walsh <norm@saxonica.com>
- Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2026 07:57:37 +0100
- To: public-xslt-40@w3.org
Hello,
Here are the draft minutes from yesterday’s meeting:
https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html
QT4 CG Meeting 158 Minutes 2026-03-31
[1]Meeting index / [2]QT4CG.org / [3]Dashboard / [4]GH Issues / [5]GH
Pull Requests
Table of Contents
* [6]Summary of new and continuing actions [0/8]
* [7]Draft Minutes
* [8]1. Administrivia
+ [9]1.1. Roll call [8/10]
+ [10]1.2. Accept the agenda
+ [11]1.3. Approve minutes of the previous meeting
+ [12]1.4. Next meeting
+ [13]1.5. Review of open action items [0/8]
+ [14]1.6. Review of open pull requests and issues
o [15]1.6.1. Merge without discussion
o [16]1.6.2. Close without action
o [17]1.6.3. Substantive PRs
* [18]2. Technical agenda
+ [19]2.1. PR #2559: 2549 Functional purity
+ [20]2.2. PR #2558: 2556 errors for invisible-xml() and doc()
+ [21]2.3. PR #2552: 540bis Add system-properties() function
+ [22]2.4. PR #2533: 2528 Update RFC reference (7159 -> 8259)
for JSON
+ [23]2.5. PR #2531: QT4CG-154-02 Revise rules for setting
stylesheet parameters
+ [24]2.6. PR #2516: 2433 JTree function: Discuss JNode identity
more fully
+ [25]2.7. 2.6a: PR #2551 - shadow attribute in a RNG schema
+ [26]2.8. PR #2019: 1776: XSLT template rules for maps and
array
* [27]3. Any other business
Summary of new and continuing actions [0/8]
* [ ] QT4CG-143-02: MK to try to recover the ability to extract
formal equivalences into tests
* [ ] QT4CG-144-01: MK to consider if any now lost value comparisons
should be added as examples.
* [ ] QT4CG-150-01: NW to ask Jirka for a room at XML Prague for
Tuesday/Wednesday
* [ ] QT4CG-150-04: NW to see about a status update on PR #2345;
possibly schedule discussion
* [ ] QT4CG-156-01: MK: add reference to data model in F&O 9.2
* [ ] QT4CG-156-03: MK to revise PR #2516 in light of the comments.
* [ ] QT4CG-157-01: CG to consider the issue of such empty
directories
* [ ] QT4CG-157-02: CG to propose an editorial change to use the
fos:notes construct for the Notes. Also relevant to #2546
* [ ] QT4CG-158-01: MK to revisit the Conformance section to revise
in light of #2556 error changes
* [ ] QT4CG-158-02: MK to add system-properties() keys for file and
binary support
Draft Minutes
1. Administrivia
1.1. Roll call [8/10]
Regrets: DB, NW
* [ ] David J Birnbaum (DB)
* [X] Reece Dunn (RD)
* [X] Christian Gr¸n (CG)
* [X] Joel Kalvesmaki (JK) Chair.
* [X] Michael Kay (MK)
* [X] Juri Leino (JLO)
* [X] John Lumley (JWL) Scribe
* [X] Alan Painter (AP
* [X] Wendell Piez (WP)
* [ ] Norm Tovey-Walsh (NW)
NW thanks JK and JWL. Assume any errors introduced in the minutes are
NW's fault.
1.2. Accept the agenda
Proposal: Accept [28]the agenda.
Accepted with PR #2551 removed; issue 2.7 is not ready.
1.3. Approve minutes of the previous meeting
Proposal: Accept [29]the minutes of the previous meeting.
Accepted.
1.4. Next meeting
The next meeting is planned for 7 April 2026.
JWL gives regrets for 7, 14, and 21 April.
1.5. Review of open action items [0/8]
* [ ] QT4CG-143-02: MK to try to recover the ability to extract
formal equivalences into tests
* [ ] QT4CG-144-01: MK to consider if any now lost value comparisons
should be added as examples.
* [ ] QT4CG-150-01: NW to ask Jirka for a room at XML Prague for
Tuesday/Wednesday
* [ ] QT4CG-150-04: NW to see about a status update on PR #2345;
possibly schedule discussion
* [ ] QT4CG-156-01: MK: add reference to data model in F&O 9.2
* [ ] QT4CG-156-03: MK to revise PR #2516 in light of the comments.
* [ ] QT4CG-157-01: CG to consider the issue of such empty
directories
* [ ] QT4CG-157-02: CG to propose an editorial change to use the
fos:notes construct for the Notes. Also relevant to #2546
1.6. Review of open pull requests and issues
This section summarizes all of the issues and pull requests that need
to be resolved before we can finish. See [30]Technical Agenda below for
the focus of this meeting.
1.6.1. Merge without discussion
The following PRs are editorial, small, or otherwise appeared to be
uncontroversial when the agenda was prepared. The chairs propose that
these can be merged without discussion. If you think discussion is
necessary, please say so.
* PR [31]#2563: 2562 Empty fields in parts-of-dateTime result now
absent
* PR [32]#2560: 2321 Make fn:trace and fn:message nondeterministic
* PR [33]#2555: 2215 Add "see also" links between functions
* PR [34]#2545: 2544 Drop xsl:record-type/@extensible
Proposal: merge without discussion.
Accepted.
* PR [35]#2551: 2550 Shadow attributes in RelaxNG schema
+ Moved to the technical agenda
1.6.2. Close without action
It has been proposed that the following issues be closed without
action. If you think discussion is necessary, please say so.
* Issue [36]#2526: Facets
* Issue [37]#2325: Specify evaluation more tight and more formal to
disallow unsane cases
* Issue [38]#2252: Dynamic XPath Evaluation the functional way
Proposal: close without further action.
Accepted.
1.6.3. Substantive PRs
The following substantive PRs were open when this agenda was prepared.
* PR [39]#2559: 2549 Functional purity
* PR [40]#2558: 2556 errors for invisible-xml() and doc()
* PR [41]#2552: 540bis Add system-properties() function
* PR [42]#2533: 2528 Update RFC reference (7159 -> 8259) for JSON
* PR [43]#2531: QT4CG-154-02 Revise rules for setting stylesheet
parameters
* PR [44]#2516: 2433 JTree function: Discuss JNode identity more
fully
* PR [45]#2019: 1776: XSLT template rules for maps and array
2. Technical agenda
2.1. PR #2559: 2549 Functional purity
See PR [46]#2559.
* MK: arises from incorporating the File module. This needs a bit
more detail and recommendations of the problem of possible
side-effects on functional 'purity'. A short essay to document
current understanding.
+ ... Explains what are the benefits of a functional language
and the issues that might make this difficult. Eg. errors and
node construction withidentity. Advice to users to mitigate or
reduce the problems.
+ ... Then some discussion of much more serious side-effecting
functions.
+ ... No attempt to tackle conformance rules.
+ .. No attempt to enumerate all the cases of side-effect
caution.
* JLO: Looks a good addition, giving guidance to both implementors
and users. Would like to have some indication of side-effct risk on
functions in the spec. 1.c - covers side-effects other than errors
(comfirmed by MK)
* AP: Could there be a 'lint-type' utility to identify problem ares
for these side effects.
* MK: Next stage could be to add something to the language to add
this sort of check formnally.
* CG: XQUery Update in their implementation has a non-deterministic
property available, though it hasn't really been used. Would take a
long time to do it all formally.
Proposal: accept this PR.
Accepted.
2.2. PR #2558: 2556 errors for invisible-xml() and doc()
See PR [47]#2558.
* MK: Started with invisible-xml() and it expanded to parse-xml() and
thence doc()
+ ... Added specific errors for some of the violations, e.g.
validation failure, unsupported options keywords (See the PR
for the specific errors added)
+ ... Arranged that parse-xml() and doc() use same wording in
the descriptions invisible-xml() moves the error descriptions
into an error conditions section. (Means lack of an invisible
XML processor can raise an error rather than conformance
failure, c.f the same with fn:transform())
* JLO: Could we have more detailed error codes on parse-xml()
* MK: Difficult with plug-in implementations.
ACTION QT4CG-158-01: MK to revisit the Conformance section to revise in
light of #2556 error changes
Proposal: accept this PR.
Accepted.
2.3. PR #2552: 540bis Add system-properties() function
See PR [48]#2552.
* MK: Original idea was to add the XSLT system-property() function
into XPAth, but those properties names are in the XSLT namespace.
Solution to produce a new function, system-properties(), which will
use (add) no-namespace QNames, and is effectively a subset of the
XSLT version. Can be a full replacement for system-property()
* JK: Will XSL properties be available in non-XSLT situations.
* MK: No.
* JK: What about adding supports-file, supports-binary.
ACTION QT4CG-158-02: MK to add system-properties() keys for file and
binary support
* JLO: Records can't be extended. Does this cause problems?
* MK: No (some discussion)
* CG: Would it be easier for users if the default keys were strings
as well as QNames
* MK: Becomes a bit messy.
* JLO: Serialization options has both strings and QNames
Proposal: accept this PR.
Accepted.
2.4. PR #2533: 2528 Update RFC reference (7159 -> 8259) for JSON
See PR [49]#2533.
* MK: Pretty trivial, as JSON spec has moved on with no appreciable
material change. Minor editorial changes.
* AP: It's now a real rather than proposed standard. Agreed with ECMA
and IETF. (Talked about this at 2024 Prague)
* MK: Some small additions/changes in F&O regarding BOM etc.
Proposal: accept this PR.
Accepted.
2.5. PR #2531: QT4CG-154-02 Revise rules for setting stylesheet parameters
See PR [50]#2531.
* MK: Came from the proposal to add xsl:with-param to
xsl:use-package.
+ ... Revealed a bug in 3.0 where there was confusion about
private and public parameter default visibilities
+ ... More careful distinction between static and dynamic
parameters in these cases.
Proposal: accept this PR.
Accepted.
2.6. PR #2516: 2433 JTree function: Discuss JNode identity more fully
See PR [51]#2516.
* MK: Address this issue at CG's request. A general set of notes
about the identity of similar/same trees
+ ... All we can say is that two trees with differing content
have different identity.
+ ... Not as strong a guarantee as we can give for XNodes
+ ... Only important in cases with extractions for the same
tree, including de-duplication
+ ... Notes about where jtree() is call implicitly (Note context
doesn't support much internal structure)
* WP: Looks helpful. Having a JNode from a tree vs ???
* JLO: Even though it is weakly defined, can I assume identical
expressions on the same tree would produce the same identiies? What
about via variables.
* MK: An optimizer may have inlined the content of the variable,
making several tree copies. OPtimizers aren't constrained not to
expand in multiple places.
Proposal: accept this PR.
Accepted.
2.7. 2.6a: PR #2551 - shadow attribute in a RNG schema
* MK: Don't really understand what it's trying to - not an RNG
specialist.
+ ... NW might want to get involved.
* MK: I'll withdraw the PR and assign to NW.
* WP: Willing to help NW with this. Needs validation.
PR #2551 will be abandoned.
2.8. PR #2019: 1776: XSLT template rules for maps and array
See PR [52]#2019.
Not ready for discussion.
3. Any other business
None heard.
References
1. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/
2. https://qt4cg.org/
3. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard
4. https://github.com/qt4cg/qtspecs/issues
5. https://github.com/qt4cg/qtspecs/pulls
6. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#new-actions
7. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#minutes
8. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#administrivia
9. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#roll-call
10. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#agenda
11. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#approve-minutes
12. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#next-meeting
13. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#open-actions
14. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#open-pull-requests
15. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#merge-without-discussion
16. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#close-without-action
17. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#substantive
18. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#technical-agenda
19. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2559
20. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2558
21. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2552
22. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2533
23. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2531
24. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2516
25. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2551
26. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#pr-2019
27. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#any-other-business
28. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/agenda/2026/03-31.html
29. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-24.html
30. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2026/03-31.html#technical-agenda
31. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2563
32. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2560
33. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2555
34. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2545
35. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2551
36. https://github.com/qt4cg/qtspecs/issues/2526
37. https://github.com/qt4cg/qtspecs/issues/2325
38. https://github.com/qt4cg/qtspecs/issues/2252
39. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2559
40. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2558
41. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2552
42. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2533
43. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2531
44. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2516
45. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2019
46. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2559
47. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2558
48. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2552
49. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2533
50. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2531
51. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2516
52. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-2019
Be seeing you,
norm
--
Norm Tovey-Walsh
CEO, Saxonica
Received on Wednesday, 1 April 2026 06:57:44 UTC