- From: Norm Tovey-Walsh <norm@saxonica.com>
- Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 17:17:36 +0000
- To: public-xslt-40@w3.org
- Message-ID: <m2fsciwboh.fsf@saxonica.com>
Hello,
Draft minutes for meeting 017 on 10 January 2023 have been published:
https://qt4cg.org/meeting/agenda/2023/01-10
QT4 CG Meeting 017 Minutes 2023-01-10
Table of Contents
* [1]Draft Minutes
* [2]Summary of new and continuing actions [0/17]
* [3]1. Administrivia
+ [4]1.1. Roll call [10/14]
+ [5]1.2. Accept the agenda
+ [6]1.3. Approve minutes of the previous meeting
+ [7]1.4. Next meeting
+ [8]1.5. Review of open action items [1/14]
* [9]2. Technical Agenda
+ [10]2.1. Issue #281, reopened as #299
+ [11]2.2. Review pull request #259: parse-html (issue #74)
+ [12]2.3. Review pull request #261: fn:char (issue #121)
+ [13]2.4. Review pull request #284: Grammar for if-then w/o
else
* [14]3. Any other business
Draft Minutes
Summary of new and continuing actions [0/17]
* [ ] QT4CG-002-10: BTW to coordinate some ideas about improving
diversity in the group
* [ ] QT4CG-015-02: NW to improve the width of the diagrams, perhaps
multiple views
* [ ] QT4CG-015-03: NW to make sure the direction of the arrow is in
the legend
* [ ] QT4CG-015-04: NW to investigate of a dynamic presentation is
practical
* [ ] QT4CG-016-02: NW to add an ed-note indicating when it was
approved.
* [ ] QT4CG-016-03: RD to add a note clarifying "known character
encoding"
* [ ] QT4CG-016-04: RD to add a note clarifying the "*"/"*"
html/version combination
* [ ] QT4CG-016-05: RD to add a "todo" noting the dependency on
keyword arguments
* [ ] QT4CG-016-06: RD to reword the introduction to mapping to
clarify who's doing the mapping
* [ ] QT4CG-016-07: NW to make an issue about the problems of
document-uri uniqueness
* [ ] QT4CG-016-08: RD to clarify how namespace comparisons are
performed.
* [ ] QT4CG-016-09: RD to add a note stating that the local name
should always be lowercase
* [ ] QT4CG-016-10: RD to consider how to clarify parsed entity
parsing.
* [ ] QT4CG-017-01: MK to clarify the characters numbers in points 1
and 2 of fn:char
* [ ] QT4CG-017-02: MK to change the order of points to 3, 4, 1, 2 in
fn:char
* [ ] QT4CG-017-03: SF to follow up on whether or not the browser has
all the Unicode and emoji names.
* [ ] QT4CG-017-04: MK to revise PR #284 to include an optional else
`else'
1. Administrivia
1.1. Roll call [10/14]
Regrets: BTW
* [ ] Anthony (Tony) Bufort (AB)
* [X] Reece Dunn (RD)
* [X] Sasha Firsov (SF) [:15-]
* [X] Christian Gr¸n (CG)
* [X] Joel Kalvesmaki (JK) [:12-]
* [X] Michael Kay (MK)
* [X] John Lumley (JL)
* [X] Dimitre Novatchev (DN)
* [X] Ed Porter (EP)
* [ ] Liam Quin (LQ)
* [ ] Adam Retter
* [X] C. M. Sperberg-McQueen (MSM)
* [ ] Bethan Tovey-Walsh (BTW)
* [X] Norm Tovey-Walsh (NW). Scribe. Chair.
1.2. Accept the agenda
Happy New Year!
Proposal: Accept [15]the agenda.
Accepted.
1.3. Approve minutes of the previous meeting
Proposal: Accept [16]the minutes of the previous meeting.
Accepted.
1.4. Next meeting
The next meeting [17]is scheduled for Tuesday, 17 January 2023.
No regrets heard.
1.5. Review of open action items [1/14]
* [ ] QT4CG-002-10: BTW to coordinate some ideas about improving
diversity in the group
* [ ] QT4CG-015-02: NW to improve the width of the diagrams, perhaps
multiple views
* [ ] QT4CG-015-03: NW to make sure the direction of the arrow is in
the legend
* [ ] QT4CG-015-04: NW to investigate of a dynamic presentation is
practical
* [X] QT4CG-016-01: DN to provide prose with more of the details for
#281 Completed, reopened #299
* [ ] QT4CG-016-02: NW to add an ed-note indicating when it was
approved.
* [ ] QT4CG-016-03: RD to add a note clarifying "known character
encoding"
* [ ] QT4CG-016-04: RD to add a note clarifying the "*"/"*"
html/version combination
* [ ] QT4CG-016-05: RD to add a "todo" noting the dependency on
keyword arguments
* [ ] QT4CG-016-06: RD to reword the introduction to mapping to
clarify who's doing the mapping
* [ ] QT4CG-016-07: NW to make an issue about the problems of
document-uri uniqueness
* [ ] QT4CG-016-08: RD to clarify how namespace comparisons are
performed.
* [ ] QT4CG-016-09: RD to add a note stating that the local name
should always be lowercase
* [ ] QT4CG-016-10: RD to consider how to clarify parsed entity
parsing.
2. Technical Agenda
2.1. Issue #281, reopened as #299
We had [18]some discussion of [19]#281 previously, but no resolution.
Discussion of this item is contingent on action QT4CG-016-01.
* DN: I would like to thank MK and CG for very valuable feedback. I
think we probably should not try to have the discussion here. There
needs to be some more feedback before we can really discuss it.
+ ... MK wanted to include partial evaluation of structured
objects. Would be good to get some feedkback from RD on this
issue.
* NW: Ok, we'll leave this open for more feedback.
2.2. Review pull request #259: parse-html (issue #74)
See [20]pull request #259
The proposal was [21]reviewed in [22]meeting 016. Discussion is
expected to continue.
* MK: I'd like to report on the test suite.
+ ... Someone pointed me to the HTML5 test suite which was too
big to use in practice. I took a sample of 1,300 test cases
out of it, chosen so that they have different tag structure. I
effectively did a majority vote on those between three
supposed implementations of the HTML5 parsing algorithm: JSoup
and Validator.nu in Java and AngleSharp in C#. After tweaking
to set options on how they deal with comments and such, they
deliver the same results in about 1,200 cases.
+ ... The reference results I constructed from JSoup. Then I've
got two implementations one using Validator.nu and AngleSharp.
+ ... Down to about 30 cases for each product that need to be
resolved.
* MSM: You said you know which one is right in some cases, does it
seem possible to induce the products producing the wrong results to
do the right thing?
* MK: I'm using the browser to arbitrate. If I get different results,
I assume the browser is right.
* RD: In the cases where they differ, how much does that matter in
terms of conformance?
* MK: I think we have to live with the fact that there will be some
variation across products. Remember that this test suite was
designed to test edge cases.
* RD: Are we going to ignore the edge cases?
* MK: I'd recommend that we try to get the test suite to a point
where there's a single correct result for each test. If an
implementation knows it fails a test, it can document that failure
and exclude the test.
Some discussion of a "reference implementation". The W3C doesn't
typically have a reference implementation, instead it publishes test
results. There's a slight difficulty here because the HTML5 spec is
moving, but that's true of the Unicode spec as well so we've learned to
cope.
Proposal: Accept the PR.
Accepted.
2.3. Review pull request #261: fn:char (issue #121)
See [23]pull request #261
* MK reviews #261
+ ... The backslash variant is limited to "n", and "r", and "t"
* RD: A point on the missing bibliographic reference: my PR #259 adds
a bibiliographic reference for HTML5: The Living Standard.
* MSM: In item 3 we allow implementations to recognize other names. I
wonder if we want to allow an imaginary DTD aware processor to
allow any general entity name.
* RD: I don't think we have a mechanism for bringing the DTD entities
into scope.
* SF: That means it would be reference to implemented entities in the
environment.
* MSM: I don't see a lot of support, so nevermind. :-)
* MK: I wanted to make it slightly extensible because HTML is a
living standard.
* RD: What about the Unicode names?
* MK: I think the database of Unicode names is just too large.
* RD: But if you need the Unicode regex classes, those have the
Unicode names.
* SF: What about entities defined in the document?
* MK: This isn't suggesting that you should get them any DTD, it's
limited to the ones in the standard.
+ ... If you're in XSLT and you want to use entity references,
then you don't need this function to refer directly to
entities in the stylesheet's DTD.
* MSM: In an XSLT document, or an XQuery, I don't want entities that
are declared in the document I'm working on to be in-scope. The
entities that should be in scope are the ones in the stylesheet.
+ ... If I'm going to use entity syntax (or something entity
adjacent like this function) in an XPath expression or XQuery,
then I don't want to pick up entity names from entities that
are declared for the document I'm processing. The scoping
rules are wrong.
* DN: Maybe I don't understand, isn't it possible for an entity to
expand to multiple characters? And what about emojis? What is a
character.
* MK: That's a good point. I think that the HTML5 ones are all single
characters.
* NW: Maybe today but what about tomorrow?
* RD: I know there are several that are multiple UTF-16 code points.
I can't remember if any of them are multi-character.
* NW: Is anything lost if we say this returns a string?
* MK: No, I don't think so. It raises the question of whether a
single call should be able name two characters (e.g., "\r\n")
* RD: I think "#xnnn" is potentially misleading because there can be
up to six numbers.
ACTION QT4CG-017-01: MK to clarify the characters numbers in points 1
and 2 of fn:char
Some discussion of how emoji fit in.
* MSM: If we were to allowe any Unicode names then we could use the
Unicode names for those emoji, but my instinct is that people who
are working with this function library who need to refer to an
emoji will have a hex number for it.
* NW: I have very mixed feelings about the Unicode names. I want them
but I agree with MK about not shipping the whole database
everywhere.
* MSM: If we wanted to allow that we could rewrite rule 3 to allow
more flexibility.
* JK: When I first read this, I didn't understand why I needed it
from points 1 and 2. I think it would make sense to change the
order so that points 3 and 4 come first.
ACTION QT4CG-017-02: MK to change the order of points to 3, 4, 1, 2 in
fn:char
* MSM: Did I hear correctly, SF, that browsers have all the Unicode
and emoji names built in?
* RD: I think they should do to the extent that they make use of
various Unicode libraries like ICU.
* MK: I don't think there's anything in ICU that gives you access to
characters by name.
ACTION QT4CG-017-03: SF to follow up on whether or not the browser has
all the Unicode and emoji names.
Proposal: accept the PR
Accepted.
2.4. Review pull request #284: Grammar for if-then w/o else
See [24]pull request #284
Some discussion of the background, ideas from CG, RD, DN, and MK at
least.
* MK reviews 284
+ ... If you want to do a conditional without an else branch,
you write an enclosed expression in curly braces.
* CG: Thank you, MK, for the proposal. Could we allow `else' after
the closing curly brace?
Some concern that this re-introduces else-ambiguity. Looking at CG's
examples in #284 clarifies that `else' attachment is, after all,
unambiguous.
NW expresses confusion about why we want to have `else' when we started
talking about how to avoid the `else'.
* MSM: I think the reasoning for needing this is that I've got an
elseless condition and I decide that I need to add an else. I wrote
it with braces, so it'll feel simpler if I don't have to undo the
braces and add the keyword. For people who want elseless-ifs also
going to want do without the `else' keyword?
* RD: Being able to omit the `else' is useful because you often end
up with lots of else ().
Some discussion of whether or not there's ambiguity in the grammar. We
don't have anyone doing rigorous analysis.
ACTION QT4CG-017-04: MK to revise PR #284 to include an optional else
`else'
* SF: Perhaps we should try to compare our grammar to other languages
common in our ecosystem like Java, Typescript, etc.
3. Any other business
References
1. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#minutes
2. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#new-actions
3. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#administrivia
4. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#roll-call
5. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#agenda
6. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#approve-minutes
7. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#next-meeting
8. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#open-actions
9. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#technical-agenda
10. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#h-EF7A6EB3-0BDC-4E8E-A805-8461FD43964C
11. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#pr-parse-html
12. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#pr-fn-char
13. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#pr-grammar-if-then-else
14. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2023/01-10#any-other-business
15. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/agenda/2023/01-10.html
16. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2022/12-20.html
17. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/agenda/2023/01-17.html
18. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2022/12-13.html#issue-281
19. https://github.com/qt4cg/qtspecs/issues/281
20. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-259
21. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2022/12-20.html#pr-parse-html
22. https://qt4cg.org/meeting/minutes/2022/12-20.html
23. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-261
24. https://qt4cg.org/dashboard/#pr-284
Be seeing you,
norm
--
Norm Tovey-Walsh
Saxonica
Received on Tuesday, 10 January 2023 17:18:40 UTC