Re: Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Telcon 18 March 2008

Hi George,

Attached please find the output.zip file. Sorry I missed it in the 
package. If you have any question on the result, please let us know.

Thanks!
Yi

George Cowe wrote:
> Thanks Ed, results look great.
>
> Is there any way you can pass me the results from the test in the format required to populate the page
> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/report/all.html
> - this is just the output.xml file which we feed into the report builder.
> See http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/xbinder_c_1.4/ for the previous one you provided.
>
> Many thanks
> George
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Day [mailto:edday2006@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 12 May 2008 20:58
> To: George Cowe
> Cc: Yi Wang; public-xsd-databinding@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Telcon 18 March 2008
>
> Hi George,
>
> We re-ran all tests and our updated report can be found at the following URL:
>
> http://www.obj-sys.com/w3cdatabinding/report_xbinder_c_1.4.html
>
> The full updated test package is at the following location:
>
> http://www.obj-sys.com/w3cdatabinding/xbinder14_w3cdb.zip
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Day
> Objective Systems, Inc.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:08 AM, George Cowe <gcowe@origoservices.com> wrote:
>   
>> Hi
>>
>>  We believe we have corrected the issue you mention below concerning invalid WSDL for some of the examples and would like to ask you to rerun your tests.
>>
>>  The updated examples can be found at http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/testsuite/releases/examples-20080408.zip
>>
>>  Thanks for your patience!
>>  George
>>
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: public-xsd-databinding-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xsd-databinding-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Yi Wang
>>  Sent: 25 March 2008 16:16
>>  To: George Cowe
>>  Cc: public-xsd-databinding@w3.org
>>  Subject: Re: Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Telcon 18 March 2008
>>
>>
>>  Hi George,
>>
>>  Thanks for updating the example. There is another issue with this
>>  example - echoQualifiedLocalElements.wsdl is not valid. The attribute
>>  'element' in message part 'echoQualifiedLocalElementsRequest' refers to
>>  element 'ex:echoQualifiedLocalElements' which is not defined within the
>>  WSDLfile. It was validated unsuccessfully using XMLSpy 2008. The WSDL
>>  files in the following examples have similar problem:
>>
>>      BlockDefault
>>      IncludeRelative
>>      QualifiedLocalAttributes
>>      UnqualifiedLocalElements
>>      UnqualifiedLocalAttributes
>>      ImportNamespace
>>      ImportSchemaNamespace
>>      ImportSchema
>>      ImportTypesNamespace
>>      FinalDefault
>>      SchemaVersion
>>      SOAPEncodedArray
>>      TargetNamespace
>>      NoTargetNamespace
>>
>>      ElementTypeDefaultNamespace (namespace prefix missing from the
>>  built-in type )
>>
>>  Regards,
>>  Yi Wang
>>  Objective Systems
>>
>>
>>  George Cowe wrote:
>>  > I have updated the QualifiedLocalElements example so that it actually contains some qualified local elements!
>>  >
>>  > http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/09/QualifiedLocalElements/
>>  >
>>  > For resolution of last call issue lc-xsd-9 (reference to Section 2.1.2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding-comments/2008Feb/0000.html )
>>  >
>>  > George
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > -----Original Message-----
>>  > From: public-xsd-databinding-request@w3.org [mailto:public-xsd-databinding-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of paul.downey@bt.com
>>  > Sent: 19 March 2008 11:35
>>  > To: public-xsd-databinding@w3.org
>>  > Subject: Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Telcon 18 March 2008
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > are now available:
>>  >
>>  > http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/8/3/18-databinding-minutes.html
>>  >
>>  > and copied below:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >                                                              - DRAFT -
>>  >
>>  >                                   XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Working Group Teleconference
>>  >
>>  > 18 Mar 2008
>>  >
>>  >    See also: IRC log
>>  >
>>  > Attendees
>>  >
>>  >    Present
>>  >           Jon Calladine (BT)
>>  >           George Cowe (Origo Services Limited)
>>  >           Paul Downey (BT)
>>  >           Yves Lafon (W3C)
>>  >
>>  >    Regrets
>>  >    Chair
>>  >           pauld
>>  >
>>  >    Scribe
>>  >           pauld
>>  >
>>  > Contents
>>  >
>>  >      * Topics
>>  >          1. Patterns Detection
>>  >          2. ISSUE-2: test suite
>>  >          3. Charter Renewal?
>>  >          4. Status of Basic Patterns
>>  >          5. Last Call comments from Schema WG
>>  >          6. lc-xsd-5
>>  >          7. lc-xsd-6
>>  >          8. lc-xsd-7
>>  >          9. lc-xsd-8
>>  >         10. lc-xsd-9
>>  >         11. lc-xsd-10
>>  >         12. lc-xsd-11 Editorial Concerns
>>  >         13. Status of Publication
>>  >      * Summary of Action Items
>>  >      ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>  >
>>  >    minutes from 2008-3-11 teleconference 2008-2-19 teleconference approved
>>  >
>>  >   Patterns Detection
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: built annotation
>>  >    ... see the examples and collection pages
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: will look at optionally adding it to the service
>>  >
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/09/DateAttribute/
>>  >
>>  >   ISSUE-2: test suite
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: the XBinder guys picked up an old copy of the testsuite and sent results
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: cool!
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: we've added a load more tests, so I sent them a new copy
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: that's great. Many thanks!
>>  >    ... collection is now checked in with annotation!
>>  >    ... what's next for the test suite?
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: not a lot, we've run the tools we can, half the toolkits missing, Adrian had the ability to run them
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: but for basic, how do we stand?
>>  >
>>  >    <gcowe> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/report/basic.html
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: I can rerun SOAP4R and ZSI, can someone help with WCF
>>  >
>>  >    <Yves> I am doing gsoap c and c++
>>  >
>>  >   Charter Renewal?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: dependent on publishing Last Call documents
>>  >
>>  >    yves: we should be able to ask for another six months
>>  >
>>  >   Status of Basic Patterns
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: thanks George for the work on differencing
>>  >    ... status section needs updating further
>>  >
>>  >   Last Call comments from Schema WG
>>  >
>>  >    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding-comments/2008Feb/0000.html
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-5
>>  >
>>  >    * Schema documents vs. schemas: Following up on the point above, there are
>>  >    schema documents that do not stand on their own in defining a schema
>>  >    that's useful for validation. For example, if a schema document merely
>>  >    defines a complext Type T as being derived by extension from type B with
>>  >    attribute A, then you don't really know what the type is until you find
>>  >    the base type B, and that may well be in a different schema document.
>>  >    Maybe there is element content in effective type T. If there is an
>>  >    element E declared of type T, then what does the requirement to "[expose]
>>  >    all of the [XML 1.0] element node and attribute node content described by
>>  >    the originating [XML Schema 1.0] document" mean? The problem is that it's
>>  >    not really schema documents that directly call for or don't call for
>>  >    content in documents to be validated. Schema documents contribute to the
>>  >    construction of a schema (formally defined at [4]), which in turn contains
>>  >    element declarations, etc. that can be used to require or allow content
>>  >    in documents to be validated. >>It seems that some serious thought is
>>  >    needed as to whether it's schema documents or schemas that would conform
>>  >    to the databinding specification.<< In any case, referring to the
>>  >    element or attribute content "described by a schema document" is not just
>>  >    too informal; as suggested above, it's likely that you really want to
>>  >    talk about the element or attribute content allowed by a schema.
>>  >    Conversely, you could more clearly define a set of rules relating to
>>  >    individual schema documents if that's what you really intend.
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: this is related to the infoset (v) document issue. It would be much harder to write test tools for this
>>  >
>>  >    yves: we're testing for bytes on the wire, not at the infoset level
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: the only way I could see this working is if they had an XML format for their infoset or even the PSVI
>>  >    ... anyone want to support this comment?
>>  >
>>  >    *crickets*
>>  >
>>  >    RESOLUTION: lc-xsd-5 rejected
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-6
>>  >
>>  >    * Section 1.4 says that conformance requires that an implementation: "MUST
>>  >    be able to consume any well-formed [XML 1.0] document which satisfies
>>  >    local-schema validity against the originating [XML Schema 1.0] document
>>  >    exposing all of the [XML 1.0] element node and attribute node content in
>>  >    the data model." Again, local-schema validity is not a relation defined
>>  >    on the pair {instance, schema document}, it is (presuming you indicate
>>  >    which type or element declaration to start with) defined on the pair
>>  >    {instance, schema}"
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/basic/basic.html#assert-ProduceXML
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: anyone feel like they have better words for this assertion?
>>  >
>>  >    *crickets*
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: let's ask them for better text!
>>  >
>>  >    <scribe> ACTION: pdowney to ask the Schema WG for advice [recorded in
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
>>  >
>>  >    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-129 - Ask the Schema WG for advice [on Paul Downey - due 2008-03-25].
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: so we accept the comment, but don't have the skills to address it to schema WG's satisfaction
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-7
>>  >
>>  >    * Section 2: "The [XPath 2.0] expression is located from an [XML Schema
>>  >    1.0] element node which may be the document element, or an element
>>  >    contained inside an [XML 1.0] document such as [WSDL 2.0] description."
>>  >
>>  >    It's not quite clear what is meant in saying that an "[XPath 2.0]
>>  >    expression is located from". Is this trying to establish the "Context
>>  >    Node" for the XPath expression as being the node of the <xsd:schema>
>>  >    element? If so, we recommend you say that more clearly, preferably with
>>  >    hyperlinks to the pertinent parts of the XPath Recommendation. Also, the
>>  >    phrase "may not" can be read as prohibiting the case where the element
>>  >    note is the document node. I suspect you meant "need not". Finally, [XML
>>  >    Schema 1.0] element node isn't a term that appears in the XSD
>>  >    Recommendation; did you mean the "root element information item of the
>>  >    schema document"?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: accept "need not" change to text
>>  >    ... suggest a note to say "this is to establish the Context node for the XPath expression"
>>  >    ... seems reasonable to link to the XPath recommedation
>>  >
>>  >    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-7 with suggested text changes
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-8
>>  >
>>  >    * Sections 2.x: The phrase "An [XML 1.0] document exibits the XXXXX
>>  >    pattern...." is used repeatedly in these sections and their descendents.
>>  >    See comments about about need to refer to "schema documents", if that's
>>  >    what's intended.
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: looks like the documents (v) infoset comment again
>>  >
>>  >    yves: is that the instance document?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: we could be clearer that it's a WSDL 1.0, 2.0, Schema, whatever, but balooning the boilerplate isn't desirable
>>  >    ... we already have "2.1 Schema Element
>>  >
>>  >    The xs:schema element MAY be the document element, but MAY also appear within other descriptions such as a [WSDL 2.0] or
>>  >    [WSDL 1.1] document. /-"
>>  >
>>  >    yves: text tied up better to the "An [XML 1.0] document exhibits the"
>>  >
>>  >    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-5 as requiring clarification
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-9
>>  >
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xmlschema-patterns-20071031/#group-SchemaElement
>>  >
>>  >    * Section 2.1.2: talks about qualified local elements, but the sample
>>  >    schema contains no local elements.
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: we could change the example to include local elements
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: what does that mean for the test suite? is this one excluded?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: I suspect this is something we've excluded, so it could be safe
>>  >
>>  >    could risk introducing an advanced pattern
>>  >
>>  >    example something like:
>>  >
>>  >    <xs:element name="foo">
>>  >      <xs:complexType>
>>  >        <xs:sequence>
>>  >          <xs:element ..
>>  >          <xs:element ..
>>  >         </xs:sequence>
>>  >      </xs:complexType>
>>  >    </xs:element
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: will update example
>>  >
>>  >    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-9, will expand example
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-10
>>  >
>>  >    * Section 2.1.6: BlockDefault. This pattern seems to imply that
>>  >    substitutions and or derivations are blocked if the @blockDefault
>>  >    attribute is provided, but in fact that attribute carries a value that can
>>  >    selectively enable or disable blocking for any combination of extension,
>>  >    restriction, and substitution. It seems unlikely that the rule of
>>  >    interest is really that the attribute is present. Is that what's
>>  >    intended, or did you wish to actually check for certain values of the
>>  >    blockDefault. Note, in particular, that an explicit blockDefault="" has
>>  >    the same semantic as leaving out the attribute entirely.
>>  >    I regret that I did not have time to review the remainder of the patterns
>>  >    in the draft, but I would assume that the above comments would be
>>  >    representative of what would be found for other patterns.
>>  >
>>  >    jonc: mea culpa!
>>  >    ... pattern needs tightening up,
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: it's been moved to Advanced anyway
>>  >
>>  >    <scribe> ACTION: jcalladi to sort out BlockDefault patterns [recorded in
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
>>  >
>>  >    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-130 - Sort out BlockDefault patterns [on Jonathan Calladine - due 2008-03-25].
>>  >
>>  >    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-10, BlockDefault has been moved to Advanced
>>  >
>>  >   lc-xsd-11 Editorial Concerns
>>  >
>>  >    The databinding draft is very long, and a lot of it is devoted to what is
>>  >    ultimately boilerplate. Consider the targetNamespace pattern. It is
>>  >    introduced with nearly 1/2 page of multicolor writeup, but really all it's
>>  >    trying to say seems to be: This pattern requires that the schema
>>  >    document have a targetNamespace attribute with an absolute URI as its
>>  >    value. That could be said much more clearly and concisely. I think the
>>  >    draft would be much more effective if the patterns were introduced in a
>>  >    manner that was as concise and clear as possible. It's not helpful to
>>  >    repeat over and over "An [XML 1.0] document exhibits....", and as noted
>>  >    above, the example schema could be made shorter and clearer. Finally,
>>  >    what would be most helpful for a pattern like this is to explain ">>why<<
>>  >    an absolute URI"? The Schema recommendation points to the XML Namespaces
>>  >    recommendation for the definition of a namespace name, and that in turn
>>  >    requires a URI Reference [5], not an Absolute URI. So, it would be
>>  >    useful in general if some of the boilerplate were eliminated and the
>>  >    sections made much shorter and easier to read, but conversely it would be
>>  >    useful to say a bit about what makes the pattern interesting. Explain
>>  >    briefly if there's a reason why absolute namespace URIs are interesting,
>>  >    or did you really just mean this pattern to be "a non-absent
>>  >    targetNamespace is available"?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: OK, so whatabout our extensive use of boilerplate?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: it's not a very human readable spec!
>>  >
>>  >    gcowe: it is computer generated
>>  >
>>  >    jonc: hard to avoid
>>  >
>>  >    >>>why<<<
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: we could have written another Schema primer, but our work has been driven by the test suite and our patterns
>>  >    detector resulting in a concrete testable document. Without a strong proposal of contributed annotated text, I'm going to
>>  >    push back.
>>  >
>>  >    jonc: discussion was it's opening the flood gates, and this is for the primer
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: I know, I'm not keen on specs which justify themselves
>>  >    ... we're pretty clear why a pattern is Basic or Advanced
>>  >    ... we're not clear on how patterns come about
>>  >    ... sounds like something we could add as editorial text, volunteers?
>>  >    ... we've done a lot of work in terms of test tools and suites, and that' the best approach IMO
>>  >
>>  >    jonc: in the past I have argued for Noah's position, but it's seems best left to additional documents and discussion, on a
>>  >    wiki?
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: XML was famously wafted by Tim Bray as a small spec, then the first thing he did was publish an "annotated version".
>>  >    You're free to do the same :)
>>  >    ... I think its' fair comment to say why a pattern is interesting. Hmm. Will look at that generically in the introduction.
>>  >
>>  >    RESOLUTION: accepted lc-xsd-11 in part, will add more introduction text
>>  >
>>  >   Status of Publication
>>  >
>>  >    pauld: all of the comments accepted are editorial, any objections to incorporating the text and then going ahead to Last
>>  >    Call as planned?
>>  >
>>  >    *None heard*
>>  >
>>  >    pickup again next tuesday
>>  >
>>  > Summary of Action Items
>>  >
>>  >    [NEW] ACTION: jcalladi to sort out BlockDefault patterns [recorded in
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
>>  >    [NEW] ACTION: pdowney to ask the Schema WG for advice [recorded in
>>  >    http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
>>  >
>>  >
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Received on Tuesday, 13 May 2008 12:50:49 UTC