- From: <paul.downey@bt.com>
- Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:50:53 +0100
- To: <public-xsd-databinding@w3.org>
now available, here:
http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html
and below for tracker's searching:
XML Schema Patterns for Databinding WG F2F
31st July - 1st August 2006
BT Westside, Hertfordshire, England, UK
[2]Agenda
Attendees
Present
Jon Calladine (BT)
George Cowe (Origo)
Paul Downey (BT)
Otu Ekanem (BT)
Yves Lafon (W3C)
Regrets
Ajith Ranabahu (WSO2)
Priscilla Walmsley (W3C Invited Expert)
Scott Wood (NACS)
Chair
pauld
Scribe
pauld
Contents
* [3]Monday
1. [4]Administrivia
2. [5]How We Work
3. [6]Workshop
[7]Tuesday
1. [8]Processing Issues List
2. [9]ISSUE-24: Multi-dimensional arrays
3. [10]ISSUE-43: ref and type qname values
4. [11]Basic and Advanced Patterns detection
5. [12]ISSUE-23: Mixed Content
6. [13]ISSUE-56: string with min/max length facets
7. [14]ISSUE-37: more than one way to express null, empty or
missing content
8. [15]ISSUE-14: xs:default
9. [16]ISSUE-17: durations
10. [17]ISSUE-5: Open enumeration type
11. [18]ISSUE-18: Schema Authoring Styles
12. [19]ISSUE-4: Collection of Databinding Impementations
13. [20]ISSUE-8: constraining numerical types with patterns
14. [21]ISSUE-9: Support for xs:union
15. [22]ISSUE-13: PSVI features
16. [23]ISSUE-29: what to do with what to do with uncommon data
structures in programming languages
17. [24]ISSUE-33: xs:choice a Basic Pattern?
18. [25]ISSUE-30: more distinct list of data structures
19. [26]ISSUE-11: Use case submissions to the test suite
20. [27]ISSUE-10: Mapping Element and Type names
21. [28]ISSUE-19: advice against 'all'
22. [29]ISSUE-57: xs:include
23. [30]ISSUE-51: attribute and element name clashes
24. [31]ISSUE-52: stable URIs for patterns
25. [32]ISSUE-63: is the order of a repeated element significant?
26. [33]ISSUE-22: Bare Vectors
27. [34]ISSUE-28: what to do if the programming language does not
fully support a data structure
28. [35]ISSUE-31: fixed value attributes
29. [36]ISSUE-35: Design Considerations as Warnings
30. [37]ISSUE-36: Tool selection for testing of basic pattern
assertions
31. [38]ISSUE-41: annotation and documentation elements as basic
patterns
32. [39]ISSUE-21: Inheritance of Collections
33. [40]ISSUE-67: using xsi:type to assert Type Substitution
34. [41]ISSUE-49: is anySimpleType a Basic Patterns type?
35. [42]Schedule
* [43]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
Administrivia
minutes for [44]2006-07-25, [45]2006-07-18 and [46]2006-07-04
teleconferences approved
How We Work
discussion of how to generate specs from [47]examples.xml and
[48]patterns.xml
simplification step is to ensure for each pattern xml:id there is a
corresponding example xml:id
text kept in another [49]explanations.xml documment in which
explanations may be picked out by the pattern xml:id or a group
xml:id.
patterns.xml will include an optional groupId attribute, e.g.
"predefinedTypes"
boilerplate introduction, references etc to be put in the XSLT which
generates the spec from patterns.xml, examples.xml and description.xml
need not(@targetNamespace)
examples in examples.xml which don't currently match patterns.xml ids,
eg "Beatle" should review and fix
gcowe: when detecting patterns in a schema, not always clear where the
patterns are being used. issuing the element or complex type name
would be useful
pauld: is this something we need to deliver? sounds like a very nice
feature.
gcowe: will investigate
[50]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/patterns/
paul demonstrates our workflow, patterns, schematron, examples,
running SOAP4r toolkit:
[51]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/
yves: fine-grained patterns may not flush out all the issues
pauld: we could build a complete basic.xsd with a complete instance
document for CR
Workshop
Working group breaks out: Paul, George and Jon write patterns and
examples; Yves writes the xmlspec generation; Paul and Otu work on
test harness for toolkits.
ISSUE-24: Multi-dimensional arrays
jonc: very common pattern
pauld: agrees, but isn't this just two collections composed?
... we have to write XPaths to follow the type=".." value, possibly
jumping namespaces, a problem we haven't solved
jonc: examples should include this pattern, if toolkits fail we can
split it into a special case
pauld: cool .. but ..
... we decided yesterday to make example ids match pattern ids, let's
add an optional @pattern to examples for this case
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-24 with no action, covered by other patterns
ISSUE-43: ref and type qname values
pauld: we've had enough pain with this to *know* it's advanced
working group authors example ElementTypeDefaultNamespace with pattern
not(contains(//xs:element/@type, ':'))
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-43 as an advanced pattern
Basic and Advanced Patterns detection
pauld: we seem to need to be able to detect advanced patterns to
ensure a schema is really basic
... is this an issue?
it's not a problem with the tool, but what about our specs?
yves: are we confident this subset isn't too small?
pauld: slightly different problem, but we are submitting patterns
important to us for basic which we know to work well
... advanced is where we do more work to see what is in common use
... BT would like to use vertical schemas in Web services, but looking
to advanced to help that. Basic is a constrained vocabulary of useful
stuff for authors working with today's tools.
... I think we're mostly there.
discussion .. issue is that the spec doesn't currently describe
behaviour around missing targetNamespace, elementFormDefault, ':' in
@types etc
we need MUST text in Basic document to flag these patterns are
required. will flag such patterns as "editorial" and check we have
text by hand
ISSUE-23: Mixed Content
Aspirational and in common use, but known not to work now.
RESOLUTION: closed ISSUE-23 as an advanced pattern
ISSUE-56: string with min/max length facets
working group builds examples and xpaths
ISSUE-37: more than one way to express null, empty or missing content
pauld: like to close this issue as there is no obvious concensus to be
had. Let's just publish the patterns and not tell people how to think
about them.
jonc: having spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying to
push it forward, I have to reluctantly agree
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-37 with no action
ISSUE-14: xs:default
no objections to moving this to "advanced"
won't close this as it may yet not be accepted
ISSUE-17: durations
no objections to moving this to "advanced"
again, won't close this as it may yet not be accepted
ISSUE-5: Open enumeration type
union is rejected by a number of tools, moved to "advanced"
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-5 accepted as an advanced pattern
ISSUE-18: Schema Authoring Styles
this issue is too generalised. People should submit concrete patterns
to be included in the spec. No russian doll, etc patterns have been
submitted for basic.
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-18 with no action
ISSUE-4: Collection of Databinding Impementations
pauld: this is just business as usual, we'll list the tools we test
against in our report, work being collected here:
[52]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-4 with no action, business as usual
ISSUE-8: constraining numerical types with patterns
jonc: goes into what does a good experience mean
... expect tools to generate code, but not validate against schema in
many cases
pauld: not sure tools will generate code, even
... what about a pattern which says 0000001
jonc: depends upon the constraints we put into our examples
pauld: think we need some experience here
jonc: Design Consideration?
pauld: that's what MSMQ suggested in Nice
... is anyone pushing to have this "Basic"?
gcowe: we use a postcode pattern, we don't expect tools to bail
pauld: seen an email pattern, scary
... still lost
... problem is validation
... is it good enough for a tool to ignore the pattern?
... propose we close this issue as Basic (subject to discovering tools
which reject such schemas) and add a Design Consideration to highlight
that tools are unlikely to validate received content or be constrained
on lexical representations they output
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-8 with pauld's proposal
ISSUE-9: Support for xs:union
pauld: most tools barf at the generation stage
... do we have patterns and examples for xs:union?
working group watches pauld painfully edit "AlternateElement" example
for xs:union
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-9 as an advanced pattern
ISSUE-13: PSVI features
pauld: see this as an interesting lead towards difficult patterns
... we have xs:default as a separate issue, other concrete patterns
can be captured similarly as separate ISSUES
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-13 with no action
ISSUE-29: what to do with what to do with uncommon data structures in
programming languages
pauld: I think issues of how programming languages implement bindings,
or represent data structures peculiar to a particular environment is
out of scope
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-29 with no action
ISSUE-33: xs:choice a Basic Pattern?
pauld: seems like Axis 1.3 bounces it but 1.4 creates same class as
for a sequence, this seems ok to me
jonc: worries me, but not sure what more they can do in Java
gcowe: what about a choice with different types?
pauld: add it as an example, not sure it's a different pattern
... same type seems like the special case
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-33 as an advanced pattern
ISSUE-30: more distinct list of data structures
gcowe: related to ISSUE-25?
yves: always an issue for meta-data
pauld: propose we accept requests to add specific data structures
rather than actively go out to harvest more.
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-30 with no action
ISSUE-11: Use case submissions to the test suite
jonc: process issue which has been overtaken by events
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-11 with no action
ISSUE-10: Mapping Element and Type names
pauld:
[53]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/testsuite/documents/n
ames/names.xsd
... need to incorporate this into our tests
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to incorporate names tests into our matrix
report [recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Incorporate names tests into our matrix
report [on Paul Downey - due 2006-08-08].
ISSUE-19: advice against 'all'
jonc: our experiences using 'all' with tools hasn't been good
pauld: advice in the issue is against writing invalid schemas, out of
scope
... do we punt this to "advanced" or go the extra mile testing with
tools?
... does anyone care enough about all for basic patterns?
gcowe: we don't use it
pauld: we're avoiding it
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-19 with 'all' as an advanced pattern
pauld: expect comments on that!
ISSUE-57: xs:include
pauld: need a pattern and an example
ISSUE-51: attribute and element name clashes
pauld: looks very much like an advanced pattern to me
... detecting with XPath simple, except when anyAttibute, or exteded
types come into play
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-51 as an advanced pattern
ISSUE-52: stable URIs for patterns
pauld: we have
[55]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/patterns/6/05/DurationGlobal
Element
[56]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/05/DurationGlobal
Element etc
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-51 with WG based URIs
ISSUE-63: is the order of a repeated element significant?
discussion, WG looks at the schema spec, then XML 1.0 spec.
pauld: this is just XML, order of elements is significant, do we need
to clarify?
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-63 with no action
ISSUE-22: Bare Vectors
pauld: has anyone seen problems with this in tools
jonc: we had issues in the past
pauld: in the days of encoding ..
jonc: more a style thing now
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-22 as a Basic pattern
ISSUE-28: what to do if the programming language does not fully support a
data structure
pauld: this is Vladislav accurately predicting our rat-holes
... canonical example is xs:Integer which in .NET is a C# String type
... or xs:choice in Java appearing as a class with all the properties
available
... which i think is better than presenting DOM
... 'better' being a loaded word
jonc: if we just look at the wire, we don't care
... sufficient that the toolkit can consume WSDL
pauld: doesn't barf and allows a programmer to access and send the
data seems good enough
jonc: that yardstick helps us make progress, +1
pauld: we use, but don't define the term "better user experience of
tools"
.. and that's OK
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-28 with no action
ISSUE-31: fixed value attributes
we need more examples
ISSUE-35: Design Considerations as Warnings
pauld: can XPath capture all our design considerations, eg. naming of
elements and types?
... do we need to provide tooling to capture things which go beyond
"patterns"
... do we need to close this issue to make progress?
jonc: what design considerations do we have?
pauld: we have naming of types, that seems to be it
moved issue to testsuite deliverable
ISSUE-36: Tool selection for testing of basic pattern assertions
pauld: we use what tools are important and available to WG members,
and are providing a framework so others can submit test reports
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-36 with no action
ISSUE-41: annotation and documentation elements as basic patterns
RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-41 as a basic pattern
ISSUE-21: Inheritance of Collections
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to submit concrete pattern for ISSUE-21
[recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-55 - Submit concrete pattern for ISSUE-21
[on Paul Downey - due 2006-08-08].
ISSUE-67: using xsi:type to assert Type Substitution
pauld: personal adversion to xsi:type, it ain't XML :-)
gcowe: will build testcases
ISSUE-49: is anySimpleType a Basic Patterns type?
pauld: spoke to Priscilla about this, she may have new (well old)
information.
... in the meantime some kits barf
moved to Advanced
Schedule
chair: want to move to Last Call working draft ASAP.
we need time to incorporate patterns, build examples and test them off
<scribe> ACTION: ylafon to book 2 hour slot for 8th August telcon
[recorded in
[58]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-56 - Book 2 hour slot for 8th August telcon
[on Yves Lafon - due 2006-08-08].
pauld: want to organise an interoperability event, ideally East Coast
USA, end of November. Failing that in January. Boston in January.
Brrr!
<scribe> ACTION: ylafon to talk with the team about hosting an
interoperability event [recorded in
[59]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-57 - Talk with the team about hosting an
interoperability event [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-08-08].
suggestion next F2F in Edinburgh, last week September
ADJOURNED
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to incorporate names tests into our matrix
report [recorded in
[60]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to submit concrete pattern for ISSUE-21
[recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: ylafon to book 2 hour slot for 8th August telcon
[recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: ylafon to talk with the team about hosting an
interoperability event [recorded in
[63]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [64]scribe.perl version 1.127
([65]CVS log)
$Date: 2006/08/01 18:33:29 $
References
1. http://www.w3.org/
2. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Jul/0019.html
3. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#monday
4. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#admin
5. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#work
6. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#workshop
7. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#tuesday
8. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#issues
9. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item02
10. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item03
11. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item04
12. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item05
13. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item06
14. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item07
15. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item09
16. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item10
17. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item11
18. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item12
19. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item13
20. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item14
21. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item15
22. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item16
23. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item17
24. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item18
25. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item18a
26. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item19
27. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item20
28. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item21
29. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item22
30. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item23
31. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item24
32. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item25
33. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item26
34. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item27
35. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item28
36. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item29
37. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item30
38. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item31
39. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item32
40. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item33
41. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item34
42. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#item35
43. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html#ActionSummary
44. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/6/7/25-databinding-minutes.html
45. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/6/7/18-databinding-minutes.html
46. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/6/7/04-databinding-minutes.html
47. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/patterns/examples.xml
48. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/patterns/patterns.xml
49. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/patterns/explanations.xml
50. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/patterns/
51. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/
52. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/
53. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/testsuite/documents/names/names.xsd
54. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action01
55. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/patterns/6/05/DurationGlobalElement
56. http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/05/DurationGlobalElement
57. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action02
58. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action03
59. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action04
60. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action01
61. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action02
62. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action03
63. http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action04
64. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
65. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Tuesday, 1 August 2006 18:51:05 UTC