Re: XProc Minutes 25 Feb 2015

I do have to send regrets for next week.  I have a meeting scheduled at the same time.  My proxy to the chair.

Loren


Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 25, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> wrote:
> 
> Resending so that it's easier to find in the archives. I accidentally
> sent this with the wrong subject the first time.
> 
> Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> writes:
>> See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes
>> 
>> [1]W3C
>> 
>>                                - DRAFT -
>> 
>>                         XML Processing Model WG
>> 
>> 25 Feb 2015
>> 
>>   [2]Agenda
>> 
>>   See also: [3]IRC log
>> 
>> Attendees
>> 
>>   Present
>>           Henry, Loren, Norm, Jim, Murray, Alex
>> 
>>   Regrets
>> 
>>   Chair
>>           Norm
>> 
>>   Scribe
>>           Norm
>> 
>> Contents
>> 
>>     * [4]Topics
>> 
>>         1. [5]Accept this agenda?
>>         2. [6]Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
>>         3. [7]Next meeting
>>         4. [8]Review of open action items
>>         5. [9]Report from XML Prague
>>         6. [10]Face-to-face in June
>>         7. [11]Default error ports, issue 136
>>         8. [12]Generalized XML Validation step, issue 135
>>         9. [13]Clarify the distinction between p:input declarations and
>>            connecctions even better, issue 147
>>        10. [14]Any other business?
>> 
>>     * [15]Summary of Action Items
>> 
>>   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>  Accept this agenda?
>> 
>>   -> [16]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-agenda
>> 
>>   Accepted.
>> 
>>  Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
>> 
>>   -> [17]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/03/04-minutes
>> 
>>   Accepted.
>> 
>>  Next meeting
>> 
>>   Proposed: 04 March 2014 does anyone have to give regrets?
>> 
>>   Jim gives likely regrets for 4 Mar
>> 
>>  Review of open action items
>> 
>>   Norm: Any progress?
>> 
>>   Norm: Nope.
>> 
>>  Report from XML Prague
>> 
>>   Norm: Pre-conference session, dinner, and conference session. Good
>>   feedback all around.
>> 
>>   Alex: It's nice to see people who are using XProc. There's definitely
>>   random folks using it that we don't know about. That's kind of cool.
>> 
>>   Jim: I had a lot of individual conversations and I think there are quite a
>>   few people tracking the 2.0 effort. Anecdotally, I think people are
>>   interested.
>>   ... Everyone was very positive about where 2.0 is going which made me
>>   happy. The other thing that struck me is that there seems to be a general
>>   emergence of pipelines as a problem solving strategy.
>>   ... Not everyone is using XProc, but they are interested in pipelines. I
>>   don't think they were turned off by it but for one reason or another it
>>   didn't fit.
>> 
>>   Loren: I think XProc needs a GUI editor.
>> 
>>   Jim: I'm sure this WG has talked about it a lot. Visualizing is one thing.
>>   Programming with a visual editor is another thing.
>>   ... I have a pretty negative attitude personally about visual programming.
>>   ... When I was looking at XProcDoc, I was thinking it might be nice to
>>   have a visual output from that.
>>   ... Overview diagrams are nice and they demo well.
>> 
>>   Norm: My v2 engine includes an "output the graph" function.
>> 
>>   Loren: PTC has a very good graphical workflow editor.
>> 
>>  Face-to-face in June
>> 
>>   Norm mumbles about dates.
>> 
>>   Norm: I expect to be in London for XML London (5-7 June).
>> 
>>   Jim: That might work better for me.
>> 
>>   Henry: I might make it to XML London too, if we had a space, we could
>>   conceivable have the meeting in London.
>> 
>>   Jim: I have a place in London we can use.
>> 
>>   Norm: I might be able to get MarkLogic to host us.
>> 
>>   Henry: I'm transitioning through London on 4 June, so I could conceivable
>>   stay.
>> 
>>   Norm: So something like 8-10 June.
>> 
>>   Henry: I'm happy to host in Edinburgh, but I don't insist on it.
>> 
>>   Norm: I don't object to moving to Edinburgh.
>> 
>>   Jim: It doesn't matter to me.
>> 
>>   Proposed: XProc will meet f2f in Edinburgh, 10-12 June 2015.
>> 
>>   Norm: Henry, will you investigate scheduling?
>> 
>>   Henry: Doing it now...
>>   ... We can have the room we've met in before.
>> 
>>  Default error ports, issue 136
>> 
>>   Jim: I think there's some email about this. The idea is that every port
>>   would have a default error port.
>>   ... The reason that I put this on there is that I didn't see any absolute
>>   objections to it.
>>   ... The idea is that every step would have an error port that would emit
>>   information.
>> 
>>   Norm: For xsl:message, for schema validation errors, etc., yes?
>> 
>>   Jim: Yes.
>>   ... I do think at the moment that we real problems debugging pipelines.
>> 
>>   Norm: The only thing I recall is that we either need to define the error
>>   format or we are describing a non-interoperable feature.
>>   ... But I have encountered pipelines where users wanted xsl:messages or
>>   validation errors.
>> 
>>   Jim: I haven't really thought it through, but I wanted to take the
>>   temperature of the group.
>> 
>>   Alex: I'm a fan of being able to trap errors and do intelligent things
>>   with them. People writing enterprise software would really like it. But we
>>   have to attempt to explore interoperability.
>> 
>>   Henry: Works for me.
>> 
>>   <scribe> ACTION: A-265-01 Jim to attempt to describe a minimally
>>   interoperable error format for a standard error port. [recorded in
>>   [18]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
>> 
>>  Generalized XML Validation step, issue 135
>> 
>>   ht, I muted you. Sorry
>> 
>>   Norm: This is a proposal for a step that uses the xml-model PI and does a
>>   variety of different validation technologies
>>   ... There is variation in the options and such, but parameters (in V2)
>>   would make that easier.
>> 
>>   Jim: I wonder if what is proposed couldn't be done with just an NVDL step
>>   orchestrating things.
>> 
>>   <ht> I think it's worth trying, at least as far as CR, since we really
>>   need to hear if it can be made to work
>> 
>>   Norm: I don't know if NVDL has a "dispatch based on model PI" or not.
>> 
>>   Jim: Probably doesn't.
>>   ... It's a question of what we build in and what comes as extensions.
>> 
>>   <ht> I would go the other way, wrt what Norm just said: Add a step which
>>   has arguments which mimic the model PI
>> 
>>   <ht> So that people don't have to piss around faking up a model PI and
>>   adding it
>> 
>>   <jfuller> ex - Oxygen has <?oxygen NVDLSchema="xhtml-xforms.nvdl"?>
>> 
>>   <ht> I'm not saying we shouldn't have the step that interprets the PI
>> 
>>   Norm: I'm not a huge fan of the model PI but I'm not sure where that's
>>   going.
>> 
>>   Henry: All I meant was, it seems to me that a. having a step that
>>   interprets the model PI and does validation seems sensible to me; not sure
>>   if it can be made to work but htat's what CR is for.
>>   ... In addition, I would like to be able to say, given a document that I'd
>>   like to validate that there isn't a specific step for. I'd have to add a
>>   model PI and then pass it to the step.
>> 
>>   <Loren> It looks like I am losing my conference room. I am going to have
>>   to drop off the call.
>> 
>>   Henry: It ought to be possible to have a builtin step to say that in the
>>   absence of the model PI, there are a bunch of parameters that give you the
>>   model PI that you wish you had put there.
>> 
>>   <jfuller> guessing this is the use case on discussion -
>>   [19]http://www.oxygenxml.com/doc/ug-author/index.html#concepts/oxygen-processing-instruction.html
>> 
>>   Jim: Are we talking just xml-model.
>> 
>>   <ht> I thought in the introduction you had said that the need for this was
>>   driven in part by the fact that the space of validators larger than the
>>   (likely) space of validation steps
>> 
>>   <ht> OK, what you _just_ said about no PI is incompatible with what I
>>   suggests
>> 
>>   Norm: That might be true, but it's not exactly what I meant.
>>   ... No one is saying this is a bad idea, so we should consider trying to
>>   spec it out.
>> 
>>   <scribe> ACTION: A-256-02 Norm to attempt to spec out a generalized
>>   p:xml-validation step. [recorded in
>>   [20]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
>> 
>>  Clarify the distinction between p:input declarations and connecctions even
>>  better, issue 147
>> 
>>   Norm: I thought the agenda needed something a little more open ended :-)
>> 
>>   Norm waffles on a bit about the fact that we have p:input doing distinct
>>   but subtly different jobs.
>> 
>>   Jim: I think at this stage in the game, I don't want to change things. If
>>   we solved this problem with a bit more words, that would be good enough.
>> 
>>   Norm: I'm happy to file this as an editorial, we need to explain this
>>   better problem, rather than adopting a technical language change.
>> 
>>   No one suggests otherwise.
>> 
>>  Any other business?
>> 
>>   Adjourned.
>> 
>> Summary of Action Items
>> 
>>   [NEW] ACTION: A-256-02 Norm to attempt to spec out a generalized
>>   p:xml-validation step. [recorded in
>>   [21]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
>>   [NEW] ACTION: A-265-01 Jim to attempt to describe a minimally
>>   interoperable error format for a standard error port. [recorded in
>>   [22]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
>> 
>>   [End of minutes]
>> 
>>   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [23]scribe.perl version 1.140 ([24]CVS
>>    log)
>>    $Date: 2015-02-25 16:29:13 $
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>   1. http://www.w3.org/
>>   2. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-agenda
>>   3. http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-irc
>>   4. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#agenda
>>   5. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item01
>>   6. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item02
>>   7. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item03
>>   8. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item04
>>   9. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item05
>>  10. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item06
>>  11. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item07
>>  12. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item08
>>  13. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item09
>>  14. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#item10
>>  15. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-minutes.html#ActionSummary
>>  16. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/02/25-agenda
>>  17. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/03/04-minutes
>>  18. http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
>>  19. http://www.oxygenxml.com/doc/ug-author/index.html#concepts/oxygen-processing-instruction.html
>>  20. http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
>>  21. http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action02
>>  22. http://www.w3.org/2015/02/25-xproc-minutes.html#action01
>>  23. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>>  24. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
> 
>                                        Be seeing you,
>                                          norm
> 
> -- 
> Norman Walsh
> Lead Engineer
> MarkLogic Corporation
> Phone: +1 512 761 6676
> www.marklogic.com

Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2015 18:15:40 UTC