- From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:31:24 -0500
- To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <m2ve615vg3.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/10-minutes
W3C[1]
- DRAFT -
XML Processing Model WG
Meeting 97, 10 Jan 2008
Agenda[2]
See also: IRC log[3]
Attendees
Present
Norm, Henry, Paul, Alessandro, Alex, Richard, Andrew
Regrets
Murray
Chair
Norm
Scribe
Norm
Contents
* Topics
1. Accept this agenda?
2. Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
3. Next meeting: telcon 17 January 2008?
4. Face-to-face meeting in 2008?
5. Last call comments
6. Split the spec into two or three parts?
7. Replace ignored namespaces with p:appinfo (or some such)
8. Allow sequences on source and result of p:pipeline
9. Any other business?
* Summary of Action Items
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Accept this agenda?
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/10-agenda
Accepted
Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/03-minutes
Accepted
Next meeting: telcon 17 January 2008?
No regrets given.
Face-to-face meeting in 2008?
Norm: Anyone think we want to try to do that before the Tech Plenary? (Oct
in Mandelieu, probably.)
Henry: I can imagine that we are sufficiently finished with XProc in a few
months that it will be time to turn our attention to our other task.
... Sitting around a table would be the best way to start.
Norm wonders about Balisage...
Norm: Let's wait and see
Last call comments
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments.html
Comment 21: XProc localization
Norm outlines his message about making p:error take its description from
an input port
Henry: This resonates with something I encountered when trying to simplify
the early example pipelines.
... Sometimes you'd like an alternative between an input port and an
option.
... For example, I'd like to be able to specify the XSLT stylesheet by way
of an option instead of on an input port.
... It's just laziness, but the idea of having an option and a port in a
trading relationship seems very natural
... The alternative is that folks won't provide descriptions for errors.
... Do we want to consider adding this feature?
Richard: Can't you do it with a select and an expression?
Norm: No, because it gets turned into a string and the markup is thrown
away.
... I guess my reaction is, gosh that's a nice feature but aren't we done
adding features?
Henry: It's not a feature it's a design pattern.
Richard: It seems to me that it's a bit excessive for what it does.
Support does not seem to be rising for the coocurrence constraint idea.
Norm: Do we want to make the description of p:error an input port?
... I observe that it does require the user to make up some random
document element for the message.
Richard: What about structured content?
Norm: No, way too much feature for now. We could remove the restrction to
strings, but that didn't get support alst time it came up.
... Straw poll: Input or option?
Input wins with unanimity.
<scribe> ACTION: Norm to change the spec to make error descriptions come
from an input port on p:error [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-xproc-minutes.html#action01[7]]
Split the spec into two or three parts?
Some discussion of why we might do this
Richard: I'm inclined to keep them together.
... I think it's simpler for readers to ahve it all in one document.
Paul: The biggest advantage as far as I'm concerned is that you could
advance different parts to PER, for example, independently.
... For example, you can tell folks we haven't fiddled the language, we've
just changed the steps.
Henry made apoint earlier about the fact that breaking it into pieces
doesn't necessarily make it into separate RECs
Paul: I don't think it makes sense to do unless we make different RECs.
Norm: The editor doesn't feel strongly one way or the other, for what it's
worth.
Henry: I think Paul's argument has value, but I don't feel that strongly
either.
Some discussion of adding steps in the future
Henry: At worst, we can always change our minds later.
... At V1.1 time, for example.
The chair doesn't hear consensus for splitting the document at this time.
Replace ignored namespaces with p:appinfo (or some such)
Norm summarizes how we got where we are
Richard: One advantage to inventing your own namespace is that it
designates the owner of the info.
Norm: We could mandate, suggest, or leave that problem to implementors
Alex: Why?
Henry: Because it's just not clear and is contradictory in the spec.
... The core of my problem is that we invite people to put an element
between two steps but we say it musn't change the flow. That's just
bizarre.
Some discussion of the extent to which deleting them is appropriate.
Norm: I guess the position I've come to is that ignored namespaces
introduce some complexity without much benefit over having a single
element for this purpose.
Alex: What about making them top-level?
Henry: Yes, excpet that the spec tries to do that and it gets confusing.
... Instead of putting it in subpipline, couldn't we put it in the prolog?
Richard: Does having a p:appinfo solve the placement problem?
Some discussion, basically yes.
Alex: I'm partial to the ignored namespace thing, but I don't mind having
an appinfo, as long as we don't call it "appinfo".
Straw poll: keep ignored namespaces,or abandon them in favor of some
element to be named later.
Results: 6 for new element, 1 for ignored namespaces, and 1 abstention.
Name the new element...
pipedata
userdata
<MoZ> pipeinfo
pragma
Results: pipedata: 3, userdata: 2, pipeinfo: 4, pragma: 3
The winner is p:pipeinfo.
Allow sequences on source and result of p:pipeline
Norm: I'm inclined to say not.
Alex: I'm inclined to allow them so that you don't have to jump into a new
syntax just to provide two input documents.
Richard: Because this is the simple case, I was expecting it to be used on
the command line and that's possibly going to make the output syntax
different.
<MoZ> +1 with Richard on output
Richard: I was planning to implement sequences as directories, that means
I'll always get a directory even when there's only a single file.
... I can work around it, but it seems a bit yucky.
Some discussion of the various possibilities
Alex: If I put an XSLT inside a pipeline, I shouldn't have to fiddle the
syntax depending on whether or not a sequence is produced.
Straw poll: sequence or no sequence?
<ht> I note that saxon 8 just concatenates multiple unnamed
result-documents on stdout
Results: sequence: 2, no sequence: 4, abstain: 2
Henry: What about sequence on input, no sequence on output?
Alex: I'm not going to lie down in the road over sequences.
Alessandro: I think we shouldn't let constraints on the command line
system influence how we design our language.
Richard: I'd agree, except that we're only discussing the abbreviated
form. And that does seem to me to have a more direct connection to
useability on the command line.
... It's there for simple cases.
Norm: Is there anyone who can't live with no sequences on input or output
None heard.
Any other business?
None.
Henry: I'd like to encourage the wG to identify any issues between here
and last call.
Some discussion of circular imports in pending mail.
Adjourned.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to change the spec to make error descriptions come from
an input port on p:error [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-xproc-minutes.html#action01[8]]
[End of minutes]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] http://www.w3.org/
[2] http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/10-agenda
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-xproc-irc
[7] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-xproc-minutes.html#action01
[8] http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-xproc-minutes.html#action01
[9] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[10] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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$Date: 2008/01/10 19:30:14 $
Received on Thursday, 10 January 2008 19:31:41 UTC