- From: Norman Walsh <Norman.Walsh@Sun.COM>
- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:13:07 -0400
- To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
- Message-ID: <871wp46rwc.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/19-minutes.html
W3C[1]
- DRAFT -
XML Processing Model WG
Meeting 40, 19 Oct 2006
Agenda[2]
See also: IRC log[3]
Attendees
Present
Norm, Paul, Alessandro, Alex, Rui, Andrew, Mohamed, Richard
Regrets
None
Chair
Norm
Scribe
Norm
Contents
* Topics
1. Accept this agenda?
2. Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
3. Next meeting: telcon 26 Oct 2006
4. Review of action items
5. Review of 13 Oct draft
6. Dynamically computed parameters
7. GRDDL
8. Syntactic irregularity of choose
9. Any other business
* Summary of Action Items
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Accept this agenda?
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/19-agenda.html
Norm proposes to add "syntactic irregularity in choose"
Accepted.
Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/12-minutes.html
Delayed until next week; scribe failed to post minutes.
Next meeting: telcon 26 Oct 2006
Mohamed gives regrets for 26 Oct.
Review of action items
A-13-01 continued
A-39-01 completed
Review of 13 Oct draft
Norm: Continued to next week.
Dynamically computed parameters
Alex: I wonder if I'm off in a corner by myself.
Murray: Yes, I think so.
Alex: Ok, but I note that we don't have any use cases in our requirements
document that require computed parameters.
Norm: Any volunteers to produce some?
<scribe> ACTION: A-40-01 Richard to construct some use cases for computed
parameters. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01[6]]
<scribe> ACTION: A-40-02 Norm to construct some use cases for computed
parameters. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02[7]]
Murray: It seems to me that you can pick a use case that exists and add a
sentence that says you get the parameters from a configuration file.
Alex: I think we need something much more complex in order to justify
adding this large a feature.
Richard: We should have them as use cases so that we can say we don't need
computed parameters for them.
<ht> Henry joins the call at 14 past the hour
Alex: I think the manifest case is covered by 5.6.
<richard> can someone paste in the url for the use cases
Norm: I concede that the alternative works but is perhaps more complex
than most users would think of.
XProc use cases and requirements:
->http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xproc-requirements-20060411/
Murray: Alex has asked us to add to the use cases document, in terms of
process do we need to do that?
Norm: No, we don't have to.
... but we should
Richard: How seriously do we have to take these use cases?
Alex: I think we should have a non-normative note that shows solutions to
all of them.
Norm: I agree
... I propose that the editor be directed to add support for computed
parameters to the language document.
Accepted.
<scribe> ACTION: A-40-03 Norm to update the language document to describe
computed parameters [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03[9]]
Alex: We don't have the ability to compute a parameter on group.
Norm: We have declare parameter on group.
Alex: So that's going to allow step/source too?
Norm: Yes, I think so.
Henry: I'd be perfectly happy if we used parameter *everywhere* except
declare-step-type (or whatever we called it)
Alex: Declare-parameter makes sense on pipeline.
Richard: There are three different things: 1. saying that some step has
parameters; 2. saying what they are for some instance; 3. places where you
have to do them both at once.
... Pipelines are in that third case.
... The same is true for group, for-each, and so one.
... We seem to have decided that you use declare-parameter for 1 and 3 and
parameter for 2.
Norm: I think that's confusing, it means some things have declare and some
don't.
Richard: Why do we have declare anywhere except component definitions?
Henry: You need to declare outputs that are then bound to inputs. You
declare things that you can refer to elsewhere, then there are certain
aspects of for-each and when that need to be declared.
... Input/output and declare-input/declare-output are much different than
parameter/declare-parameter.
... I think the false parallelism that's there at the moment is already
confusing.
Richard: What is the false parallel?
Henry: When you say declare-output on a when, that's there so that
somewhere else some input can reference it. The source is always a
declare-output. The only parallel for parameter would be to say that
parameter has to refer to a declare-parameter.
... That's not true for group/when/for-each and such things.
... That seems very misleading.
Richard: Declare things declare either inputs, outputs or parameters.
... There are two things you then do, give values to them and the other is
that use those values somewhere else. Parameters you use in XPath
expressions. Output ports you use in declarations of input ports where you
say where they came from. You declare them, assign to them, and use them.
That's true of all three.
Henry: In the case of group, you declare a parameter but don't every seem
to use it.
Alex: No that we've gone down this tangent; it seems like a number of
people would like declare- to go away.
... At the f2f, I recall that there was an uncomfortable feeling about
declare vs. use. We went around in circles and left it that way.
Henry: There are distinctions, I think we should reflect them, we don't
have it quite right, I'm not in favor of removing them.
Richard: There are three things: I think it would be better to have 1 name
for all three. Having 2 is bad and having 3 would be too verbose.
Alex: How many people on this call would prefer to drop declare-?
Richard: Is there any place where it would cause ambiguity?
Murray: Henry voiced his concern. As I recall Paul was the other person.
Paul: Which distinction?
Murray: I proposed an input element everywhere, things spread out, and
when we contracted it back, that distinction remained.
Henry: I favor the distinction being preserved.
Straw poll: who's in favor of dropping the "declare-" prefix throughout.
Results: 8 in favor, 1 against, and 2 abstentions.
Paul: Why have things changed?
Norm: I think we struggled with the model at the f2f; many of us there
were unhappy with the distinction. The best I can say is, time has passed.
Henry: I think part of the issue was that there were a lot of other
alternatives on the table at the f2f.
We wonder what Jenni's position is? Norm recalls her being in favor of
dropping the distinction.
Norm: I propose to produce a branch draft that loses the distinction and
give folks a chance to see how it feels "in situ" as it were.
<scribe> ACTION: A-40-04: Norm to produce a draft that loses the
distinction (and a diff) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04[10]]
Murray: Can we discuss GRDDL at the end?
Norm: Yes.
GRDDL
Murray: I think there's some confusion based on the responses I've been
getting.
... I'm asking about something not related to pipelines.
... An agent grabs a document and sees an GRDDL transformation. It also
sees XInclude.
... Should it expand the XIncludes or not?
... I know we haven't talked about the other half of our charter much yet,
but the GRDDL chair keeps asking me this question.
... Do we have anything to say.
Norm: I agree it's in our charter, so from a process point of view, I
think the answer is "wait, we'll get to that as soon as we can".
... I think the spec should answer the question.
Murray: The problem is that the spec isn't written in terms of agents,
only in terms of encoding.
Alex: Murray, how is this any different than someone saying that my
transformation relies on the PSVI?
... That's a presupposition of XML Schema validation.
Henry: I think the answer is clear: in the absense of an answer about the
default pipeline, there is no basis for GRDDL to take that question on.
<Zakim> MSM, you wanted to ask whether the right way to rephrase Norm's
suggestion is "they say whether the GRDDL transformation gives the RDF
meaning of the document as it exists or of
Michael: I understood Murray to say that Norm's answer is hard because the
spec isn't written to talk about processors.
... I'm assuming that the spec says something like "the pointer to the
GRDDL transformation is a pointer to a transformation that gives an RDF
encoding of the meaning of this document"
... I think Norm's suggestion can be translated: "Does that transformation
give the meaning of that document as it stands or the meaning of the
document that can be obtained from the application of XInclude to this
one"
... I'm with Norm in thinking you might want it one way or another, but
I'm with Henry about the simplest thing that could be said.
Murray: What is the document as it stands?
Michael: If we're talking about any case where serialization/infoset isn't
in the normal many-to-one relationship, that would need to be stated.
<ht> Murray: see http://dret.net/projects/xipr/[11] (a promissory note)
Richard: If you talk about the Infoset of the document, it seems to me
that are referring to the output of the parser (no other processing).
Murray: In my mind, what you get after XInclude is part of the meaning of
the document.
Alex: If you start with "the document as it stands" then when we answer
part 2 of our charter, then you can say that "the document as it stands"
is the output from that default processing.
<MSM> Murray, I would agree with you if you were talking about entity
expansion. But the example we are talking about is XInclude, which gets
used by people who want to be able to have, and work with, two different
ESISes.
Syntactic irregularity of choose
Straw poll: does the syntactic irregularity of chooes/when bother you?
Results: 5 yes, 1 no, and 4 abstain
Norm: useful information.
Any other business
None.
Adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: A-40-01 Richard to construct some use cases for computed
parameters. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01[12]]
[NEW] ACTION: A-40-02 Norm to construct some use cases for computed
parameters. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02[13]]
[NEW] ACTION: A-40-03 Norm to update the language document to describe
computed parameters [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03[14]]
[NEW] ACTION: A-40-04: Norm to produce a draft that loses the distinction
(and a diff) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04[15]]
**
[End of minutes]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] http://www.w3.org/
[2] http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/19-agenda.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-irc
[6] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01
[7] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02
[9] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03
[10] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04
[11] http://dret.net/projects/xipr/
[12] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01
[13] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02
[14] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03
[15] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04
[16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl[16] version 1.127 (CVS
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$Date: 2006/10/19 19:10:28 $
Received on Thursday, 19 October 2006 19:13:22 UTC