[XHTML] minutes/log: IRC only meeting 2008-12-17

aloha!

what follows my signature are minutes of the IRC-only XHTML2 
meeting of 17 December 2009 -- participants were:

* Roland Merrick (chair)
* Alessio Cartucci
* Markus Grylling
* Gregory J. Rosmaita (GJR)

Table of Contents:
1. Recent Additions to the XHTML2 Wiki
2. Adjourn or Continue?
3. DAISY Requirements/Dependencies
4. XHTML2 "Core" as a Basis for a "Pure" Authoring Language

note that topic breaks are demarcated using 4 dashes (----) preceding
the new Topic

it is hoped that the following will spark discussion amongst the WG on
list, and on the wiki, as individuals deem appropriate...

----
TOPIC: Recent Additions to the XHTML2 Wiki

GJR: i'm willing to work on my wiki pages more, and to prepare 
some sort of call for review of them

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements

Roland: I only took a quick look, not studied in detail

Roland: It would be useful to have a proposal on how we should deal 
with the material

Alessio: yes

GJR: and there IS some overlap -- i need to possibly editorialize 
the pages, hence the disclaimer

GJR: just some low-hanging common sense things that i thought we could 
tackle before pushing a new draft

----
TOPIC: Adjourn or Continue?

Roland: I suggest that we abandon today's call and  propose that we have 
our next call on January  7th

Markus: Gregory, any plans for a legacy module proposal page on the wiki?

GJR: if you promise to help populate it <grin>

TOPIC: DAISY Requirements/Dependencies

Alessio: markus, I'm very pleased that DAISY is onboard ;)

Markus: So are we...

GJR: i'm HAPPY to be pushing up the daisies, something i never thought 
i'd say!

Roland: I would be interested to hear the requirements that DAISY has ...

GJR: markus, maybe you should ask roland about a legacy module

Alessio: yes, and also the SYMM WG is interested in a new "life" for 
XHTML+SMIL :)

Roland: so we could do an assessment of them against both XHTML 1 and 
XHTML 2

Alessio: I agree, we could start to think to some additional multimedia 
modules

GJR: i have a thought-piece on XHTML2 versus XHTML 1.1 Hybrid that i'm 
supposed to post to both the daisy and public-xhtml2 list

Markus: DAISY has been working extensively with the current xhtml2 
schemas over the last month, creating draft grammars for hybrid 
documents

Markus: so, I will be able to share experiences and thoughts soon

Markus: Roland, what are your thoughts about a legacy module for xhtml2?

GJR: do we need a legacy module AND an XSLT engine that can take 
XHTML2+Profiles and turn it into something for legacy use

Alessio: (or a js engin plus WAI-ARIA...)

Roland: Markus, what do you see in such a Legacy module? The various 
bits that were in XHTML 1 but are not in XHTML 2?

Markus: a legacy module could contain "deprecated" elements (h1-h6, img) 
that we put into x2 in later drafts, but it could also possibly contain 
content models

Roland: pragmatically, such a legacy module seems reasonable

Markus: Including content models would mean that x2 without legacy module 
included could be strictened up

Markus: Greogry: I understand the pragmatic reasons for now, I was just 
taken away by href-anywhere .... ;)

----
TOPIC: XHTML2 "Core" as a Basis for a "Pure" Authoring Language

Roland: Today may not be the time to say this . . . BUT . . . I have 
been wondering if it might be possible to create a "pure" authoring 
language. . . that is, profiled from an existing one rather than 
creating a "pure" new XHTML2

Alessio: a sort of "mashup" language...

GJR: isn't that what XProc will help us do -- manage mashups?

Markus: Roland, you are looking for something along the lines of what 
DocBook is for technical literature?

Roland: a "semantic" subset of HTML/XHTML

Alessio: that will be a true contribution to help solving the dramatic 
problems with actual mashup webapps, and avoid what I call the "mashup 
soup"

GJR: mashup ministrone

Roland: I'm not quite sure what to suggest as yet, which is why I would 
be interested in the Daisy requirements. . . but I would like to see if 
we can solve them by building on something that already exists

Markus: suggest you investigate materials at:
* http://code.google.com/p/zednext/source/browse/#svn/trunk/src/schema

GJR: http://daisy.org/zw/ZedNext_Home_Page

GJR: roland, how dynamically evolving a language to you forsee XHTML2 
being?  a base for extension, or just another iteration until the 
next?

Roland: I would like to see a stable core that never (?!) needs to 
change

GJR: me too

Roland: so what is that core?

Markus: DAISY is thinking of a subset of the x2 modules as the core

Roland: XHTML Basic is a very large subset of XHTML . . .

GJR: Some XHTML Basic links/resources:
* http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtml-basic11
* http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xhtml-basic-20080729
* http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-basic-20081126

Roland: Could we define a much smaller core?  or, rather, could we 
agree on what is in such a core?

GJR: i think the reality we face is that any "core" will be XML as 
authors are afraid of pure XML and i'm afraid of authors mal-extending, 
so there may always be need for a base structured language on which to 
draw and extend -- a lot of authors are comfortable only in a language 
with pre-provided rules and methods

Roland: I'm not suggesting that we only define a core

Roland: Imagine that we looked at XHTML/HTML and defined an authoring 
core, this would be readily adaptable . . .

Markus: There are some inherent problems in the current w3c 
modularization docs requirements in terms of authoring, for example 
that it is not allowed to subset content models

Markus: Otherwise, "cores" are define there as well right? Not
authoring-centric but still cores:
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-m12n-relaxng-20080604/#s_conformance

Roland: but an author could make a concious choice to go beyond the core 
to use any of the superset features.

GJR: an authoring core like DIAL?

Roland: Perhaps DIAL is a good example

Alessio: yes, a credible starting point

GJR: some DIAL Related URIs:
* http://www.w3.org/TR/dial/
* http://www.w3.org/2008/07/pisa/DIAL_Reexpression.pdf
* PDF as HTML (long URI warning):
http://74.125.47.132/custom?q=cache:zEjVkqhH_9sJ:www.w3.org/2008/07/pisa/DIAL_Reexpression.pdf+DIAL&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
* http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-dial-primer-20071101/
* Delivery Context Interfaces: http://www.w3.org/TR/DPF/
* DCXPath: http://www.w3.org/TR/cselection-xaf/
* authoring challanges for DI: http://www.w3.org/TR/acdi/
* authoring challanges for a DI language: http://www.w3.org/TR/acdi/#sec-scope

Roland: If an author sticks to the DIAL subset they achieve certain 
benefits

Roland: anyway, that is a hint of how I am starting to think about the 
future

Roland: We agreed last year that we should not try to compete head on with
HTML5

Markus: Seems to me DISELECT would be a nice xhtml2-compliant module 
to have

Roland: On DISELECT, I like but I have to admit to be editor of the 
spec :-)

GJR: shall we continue this on-list?  i can summarize the points each 
of us made from my IRC log

Roland: sure, lets open up a dialog on the mailing list

Roland: some snippets to stimulate discussion would be good

GJR: ok -- will try and get up today - with accompanying wiki page <wink>

Roland: Happy Holidays to you all, speak to you again in 2009

Alessio: so, happy christmas... peace, love and standards for the new year!

<oedipus> new draft of EMMA: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-emma-20081215/

Session Close: Wed Dec 17 11:12:31 2008