- From: Harry Halpin <hhalpin@ibiblio.org>
- Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:06:18 +0100
- To: public-xg-socialweb@w3.org
- Cc: evan@status.net
Next time the time/dialing code issue should be fixed! And thanks Evan
for the great talk at the meeting!
HTML: http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-swxg-minutes.html
Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
07 Oct 2009
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-swxg-irc
Attendees
Present
Adam AlexPassant CaptSolo Carine DKA FabGandon MacTed
OpenLink_Software alex bblfish caribou cperey danbri evanpro
hhalpin joined melvster mischat pchampin petef rreck tinkster
trackbot yuk
Regrets
Andrea
Chair
hhalpin
Scribe
peterf
Contents
* [3]Topics
* [4]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 07 October 2009
<hhalpin> Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-10-07T15:00-17:00Z
<hhalpin> scribe: peterf
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 30th September 2009
as a true record
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 30th September 2009
as a true record
<tinkster> evanpro, when you call in, we're on extension 26632
instead of 7994.
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. October 14th
<hhalpin> 2. General Organization
<hhalpin> TPAC, IIW
<hhalpin>
[5]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Planning_for_TPAC
_Open_Day
[5] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Planning_for_TPAC_Open_Day
<hhalpin> TPAC?
<hhalpin> I imagine go a few...
<hhalpin> Hoping to have an "Open Day"
<hhalpin> but it conflicts with OAuth/OpenID Summit, which is also
on Monday 2nd.
hhalpin: you are scribing?
<hhalpin> This is at Yahoo.
<bblfish> do you have a URL for the openid oauth summit?
I'm happy if you are.
<hhalpin> [6]http://openid.eventbrite.com/
[6] http://openid.eventbrite.com/
<hhalpin> Petef - please scribe!
OK
<tinkster> petef, hhalpin likes to type up everything he says to
prevent himself from being misquoted.
<hhalpin> I try to type dates and stuff...
dka my initial view was we should have the open day anyway
<evanpro> Seems like there'd be great synergy to have them
complementary events
[please tell me if I am missing scribing protocol]
dka but now think maybe we should cancel the openday
and work with the openid thing
thanks guys
dka: should we just forget about it?
hhalpin: how about Tue at the Marriot?
<bblfish> Well I can get Sun on Tuesday too
<cperey> what about later in the week?
hhalpin: not too many people registered
dka: we could invite people to observe our working group
... unless we could get externally parties in to present, like on
the calls
hhalpin: we could invite people Michelle Adamic (sp?) has a list of
names we could invite
<cperey> many apologies but what about having Open Day on another
day?
<cperey> later in week?
<evanpro> two days close together please
<evanpro> I would attend if both events were close together
<evanpro> A week apart makes things hard for out-of-towners
<cperey> Henry
Thanks
<bblfish> So the question is how many people would be able to come
on Monday?
henry: it's only an openid meeting, we aren't expecting any new
announcements
<bblfish> there are three confilcting events
<hhalpin> My concern was two-fold: first, conflicting events might
be misinterpreted by OpenID/OAuth folks
<bblfish> there is Apache conf
<bblfish> there is IIW
<cperey> New proposal: what about having an Open Day when there are
not conflicting events?
<bblfish> there is W3C conf
<hhalpin> Any ideas?
<cperey> early Dec?
<cperey> I mean completely separate
cperey: I could take an action item to propose other dates at anoher
location, not TPAC
<bblfish> ok, then the problem is that a lot of people won't be out
there
<bblfish> anymore
dka: I won't be out in the Bay area again for a while
... part of the idea of doing it at TPAC was to leverage people's
attendance
... could we do a hybrid event with the openid folk?
<bblfish> sounds good too
dka: half a day on each
... is that a middle way that would satisfy everybody?
... if so we could start drafting a page around that and get it out
to people
<hhalpin> My question is can we just get these people to get to TPAC
- i.e. TPAC into an "open day"
<hhalpin> Assuming very few people are coming
<bblfish> I think I agree with that
<bblfish> how many people can come to OpenDay?
dka: concerned that we may not be able to network a largish event at
short notice
<bblfish> the IIW will be all week?
hhalpin?: won't people also be attending IIW?
<bblfish> sorry I mean they will be all week
dka: we want to make sure we aren't stepping on any toes
... seen as trying to put on a competing event
... but if we could get some CTOs and mktg consultants into TPAc
that would be good
hhalpin: we need to move on
<cperey> yep, meeting after
<cperey> henry you are breaking up
<evanpro> petef, 514-554-3826 == me
<cperey> haha!
<tinkster> danbri: we're not in 2994.
dka: evan is on the line, let's make the most of his time
evanpro: I'm enjoying listening
<tinkster> we're in 26632
<Adam> 26632 is the new code dan
dka: we'll go straight to... the invited guests
<hhalpin> 3. Invited Guest - Evan Prodromou from OpenMicroBlogging
and Alex Passant on Semantic Microblogging
<hhalpin> Evan?
<evanpro> I'm here
<hhalpin> Evan Prodromou of OpenMicroblogging will give a talk on
his work on OpenMicroblogging (see the specification) and its
connection to the wider Social Web ecoystem
dka: hopefully evanpro can give us an interesting introduction to
OMB
evanpro: a conjunction of openid, oauth and swxg would be enough to
get me out to CA
... I am the inventor and shepherd of OMB
... bg on myself - working on open source and content for 15 yrs
esp wikitravel
around issues of identity
<danbri> [7]http://evan.prodromou.name/
[7] http://evan.prodromou.name/
briefly on JSF Council
<danbri> [8]http://identi.ca/evan
[8] http://identi.ca/evan
with the launch of Twitter in 2007
there was an expolsion of interest in OMB
defined as exchange of small text message with your social network
twitter, jaiku, pownce etc.
contrast to blogging , tumblelogs and social bookmarking
people seem to enjoy OMB and the responsiveness of it
as the growth of witter got ahead of their ability to support it
interest grew in the evolution of an open standard for microblogging
(OMB)
seeing as noone else was doing it I thought I would set up an easy
hack
federated
started laconica in May 2008, hosting identi.ca
includes features important to the future of the open social web
openid, foaf, import and export of data
you can take the identi.ca source and install it in silo
so decided to create a protocol
my design criteria were
http based system
tend to go for the low end on servers
so that you could install a node on commodity shared hosting
wanted it to work with openid and oauth
and to be realtively easy to implement with existing tools and
libraries
flirted with openid attrib exchange
<danbri> cf
[9]http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-exchange-1_0.html
[9] http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-exchange-1_0.html
but the mechanics don't allow pushing and pulling to other openid
servers
so wouldn't really work
instead used oauth
subscribing to somebody's notices means that you authorise another
server to push to your inbox
four players:
publisher, subscriber, publiher-server, subscriber-server
profiles within OMB are http urls
subscriber provides their url to the publisher server
which uses oauth discovery
still very fluid
OMB uses XRD simple files
draft since deprecated for LRDD
will share links later
use oauth discovery to find endpoints
two additional endpoints are defined
the user experience is to go through the typically oauth dance
token exchange
unlike some other pubsub mechanisms
there's an expectation that I should know who subscribes to my feed
closer relationship
pass along profile info in oauth dance
avatar, full name, location, homepage, short bio
via http post params
once sub complete
the two additional endpoints are used
push based (unlike atom or rss)
no polling
good responsiveness, better performance
post notice endpoint
used by pulisher server
profile update endpoint
used if publisher profile chganges
any kind of client to server api is out of scope
laconica (now called status net) uses a clone of the twitter api
also working on an atompub version
any kind of syntax def'n is also out of scope
<Adam> the pub/sub explanation sounds very similar to pubsubhubhub
just pushes plain text
hashtags #foo and directed messages @bar are not defined in OMB
0.1 protocol has been fairly successful
thousands of nodes on the network
important weaknesses
no system for unsolicited notices
if you aren't subscribed to me no way for me to message you
<tinkster1> Adam, it sort of is, but there's no hub per se. Updates
are pushed from publisher server to subscriber server.
parsing syntax left out which means the hashtags and replies have to
be guessed at
threading questions across multiple servers
no threading bult in
no direct private messages eiother
low level thing, in oauth two kinds of keys - one to identify a
particular conversation and one for th sending server -
OMB actually uses the root URL of the sending server
hard to verify in the client
I'd like to talk about where we are going with OMB 0.2
four other implementations:
openmicroblogger, jaiku (at 0.2), etc.
for 0.2 biggest change is move away from plain text to atom entries
for pushing notices
richer data format
<DKA> NB: In Vodafone we are already using laconi.ca for an internal
microblog system and we are looking at using it as a platform for
building mobile social network prototype apps.
we'll also e able to leverage work around activitystreams
which is also atom based
<danbri> [10]http://activitystrea.ms/
[10] http://activitystrea.ms/
<danbri> (aside: they're moving this to be equally atom and json)
second important thing is we will include parsed html
some security issues obviously
will require sanitizing
but good step for usability
adding in-reply-to info
will improve threading
@xyz will resolve to an identity url for the recipient
that will travel with the packet
replacing oauth discovery with LRDD
support for unsolicited messages
in protocol, up to clients what they do with it
proposal to provision verifiable user keys
[tinkster I'll get it right eventually]
we want something interoperable by the end of the year
relation to openid
OMB identity is an URL
use YADIS
want to make sure we mesh nicely with openid
two new feed based systems announced
<danbri> bradfitz
<danbri> fitzpatrick
pubsubhubbub
atom based
<danbri> [11]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubSubHubbub
[11] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubSubHubbub
and rsscloud
embedded into rss 2.0 but never really implemented
now being revived
neither supports feeding back subscriber relation to publisher
we are implementing both of these and trying to work with the
standards to add in subscriber publisher feedback
activity streams - the hard part will be the unification between AS,
atom and opensocial
always wanted http based system
but would also like an upshift to xmpp based if both servers support
it
well known protocol, very nice pubsub system
some work done to adapt it for OMB
looking into that
stubs for that in 0.2
discovery process over the next few months
+q
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask if anyone has done usability
testing on OMB remote subscription scenarios
<danbri> peterf first
petef: have you looked at wave-protocol in relation to OM
B
evanpro: v. intersting but ow it will fit into OMB is still open
<danbri> ok i fixed my audio, i'm next on queue please :)
for low end target systems wave won't be available for quite a while
whether it picks up as ubiquitous will be interesting
my hope is that it does see some success
don't think the current generation fits well with OMB
<tinkster1> yes
interested in wave and how it develops
<tinkster1> no longer audible
<rreck> you were audiable
<DKA> losing part of danbri's speech
<danbri> q:
<danbri> have you done any usability testing
<danbri> esp on remote subscribe aspects of OMB
<danbri> do users understand what's going on, etc
evanpro: usability testing - pretty important usability problems
v. similar to usability problems for openid
mechanism is very similar
I need to remember my identity url
<danbri> cf
[12]http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-user-experience/
[12] http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-user-experience/
and provide it to remote servers which use it to start a
conversation on the back end
we haven't done much work on that
hopwe we can borrow from openid world
<danbri> i'm interested to see more work figuring out how much
implies protocol design changes, and how much can be done with
improved web design, addons etc
widgets and keeping an eye on webfinger
<danbri> [13]http://code.google.com/p/webfinger/
[13] http://code.google.com/p/webfinger/
<danbri> [14]http://hueniverse.com/2009/09/implementing-webfinger/
[14] http://hueniverse.com/2009/09/implementing-webfinger/
users associate people with email type addresses
and urls with docs
<danbri> thanks evanpro, ... i think webfinger pretty relevant here
<danbri> [15]http://hueniverse.com/webfinger/
[15] http://hueniverse.com/webfinger/
webfinger also nice simple way to include addresses into OMB msgs
<tinkster1> [16]http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/fingerpoint/
[16] http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/fingerpoint/
passive subscription
<danbri> """What Problem is WebFinger Trying to Solve? ... WebFinger
is trying to address the lack of adoption and usability of current
HTTP-URI-based user identifier solutions, most notably OpenID. """
would speed things up and improve usability
could also happen with a global directory, although there are
concerns about recentralisation
<danbri> (so maybe some role for
[17]http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/ etc ?)
[17] http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/
<Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss synergies with SMOB /
SIOC and other vocabs
<danbri> skypish sounds
alex(?): very brief overview of SMOB (audio not clear)
wondering how it relates to OMB
<tinkster1> Alex, StatusNet already published FOAF, RSS and SIOC
data.
<AlexPassant> SMOB: [18]http://smob.sioc-project.org/
[18] http://smob.sioc-project.org/
evanpro: we support sioc(?)
<tinkster1> s/shark/SIOC/
<danbri> SIOC is pronounced like Shark, yes
<danbri> (irish word)
doesn't address server to server mechanism
<CaptSolo> danbri: commonly pronounced as "shock"
similar to smtp
SMOB does a good job of keeping your published info and pushing it
out
but not really server to server interaction
<danbri> (shark is commonly pronounced 'shock' in some countries too
;)
wouldn't be a big leap to implement OMB in SMOB
would be very welcome
<CaptSolo> danbri: the proper irish pronounciation is similar to
"shuck" and means frost (imagine social networks connecting together
like snowflakes or frost on a window)
OMB doesn't (yet) cover sharing the social graph
you can use other mechanisms, through FOAF say,
<tinkster1>
[19]http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-10-07.html#T11-56-51
[19] http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-10-07.html#T11-56-51
might be nice to promote it or provide an url
as part of profile info passed through
SMOB is cool, would love to see it brought together with OMB
alex: more than happy to work together
evanpro: one of our devs took the OMB stuff out of staus net and
turned it into a WP plugin and a PHP library
<tinkster1> you're breaking up
<danbri> did we have DKA's question yet?
hhalpin: how are you using FOAF?
<DKA> nope
<DKA> :)
<bblfish> w: are you making use of foaf to do something
<tinkster1> [20]http://identi.ca/tobyink/foaf
[20] http://identi.ca/tobyink/foaf
evanpro: we provided FOAF info and use FOAF ids in graph
toby has been great in helping us implement that and the SIOC stuff
better
<danbri> try putting [21]http://identi.ca/danbri into
[22]http://socialgraph-resources.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/ex
ploreapi.html
[21] http://identi.ca/danbri
[22] http://socialgraph-resources.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/exploreapi.html
<danbri> google sgapi indexes identi.ca foaf
Could use FOAF for profile exchange in OMB
makes more sense for discovery and so usability
who should I follow?
who might I kalready know?
<danbri> poss foaf use cases 'what kind of people should i be
subscribing to, who sohuld i follow, who is there that i know, ...'
<danbri> (i think also around groups, ...)
groups is another great case
there's going to be a close interaction between OMB and FOAF
<tinkster1> SELECT ?person WHERE { ?me subscribesTo ?x , ?y . ?x
subscribesTo ?person . ?y subscribesTo ?person . FILTER (?x != ?y) }
<danbri> evanpro, if there are tweaks you need to foaf to support
any of these use cases, ... that's not so hard to arrange!
dka: we are limited on time
<danbri> i've already had a question so i'll take it to email!
<danbri> a-
dka: are you thinking about making lcation part of the platform
<danbri> (my q was basically
[23]http://lists.status.net/pipermail/statusnet-dev/2009-August/0021
17.html again)
[23] http://lists.status.net/pipermail/statusnet-dev/2009-August/002117.html
one reason many of us use Jaiku is the sophisticated support for
location
evanpro: fascinating that we are reintroducing location to the web
in OMB 0.1 we only have a points tring associated with a profile
if I update it, that can change (but would be lost)
making changes to staus net to support a richer more machine
friendly location format
will be out in 0.9 later this month
<tinkster1> geonames IIRC?
lat long and geo place name vocab
where on earth, geonames, OSM
we will also include location info for each notice
<AlexPassant> sounds along the lines of the linkage we're doing in
SMOB with geonames and DBpedia, great synergies
would make sense to get it into OMB 0.2
optional but important
moving to atom - should be easily included in atom entries
<danbri> ([24]http://status.net/trac/report/6 seems interesting to
poke around...)
[24] http://status.net/trac/report/6
evanpro: would love to attend open day, thanks for having me on the
call
<hhalpin> evanpro - will stay in touch via e-mail, and thanks so
much for being on call!
dka: thank you
<danbri> thanks evanpro!
dka: we have to close the call now
... we need tocome up with a plan for the openday offline by
tomorrow
... how to mesh with SWXG workshop, openid and oauth
<hhalpin> Oh, can we have an ACTION by someone
<hhalpin> to summarize that call?
<pchampin> bye
<AlexPassant> thanks, bye
<tinkster> I can summarise
<DKA> good point harry -
<hhalpin> thanks tinkster!
<rreck> way to go tinkster
<DKA> :)
<hhalpin> ACTION: tinkster to summarize Evan's talk [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-96 - Summarize Evan's talk [on Toby
Inkster - due 2009-10-14].
<DKA> :)
<hhalpin> Dan - do you really want to do it, or tinkster?
<DKA> If tinkster can do it that would be great.
<hhalpin> OK, will delete that from the minutes then...
<tinkster> I'm happy to.
<DKA> thanks toby!
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: tinkster to summarize Evan's talk [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
________________________________
Received on Thursday, 8 October 2009 16:06:54 UTC